E276 Learn to Sit With Yourself

There’s a weird part of sobriety where nothing is technically wrong, but you still feel uncomfortable in your own skin. In this episode, Matt and Steve talk about what happens when alcohol is gone, but the restlessness, anxiety, expectations, and urge to escape are still there.

They get into why discomfort does not always mean something is wrong, how ordinary life can still feel hard sober, and why learning to sit with yourself is not the same as isolating or forcing yourself to tough it out. Sometimes the work is naming the feeling, asking what you are trying to escape, and doing the next small right thing instead of running.

Transcript

Matt: 0:00

Hey, there's a weird part of sobriety where nothing is technically wrong, but you still feel uncomfortable in your own skin. That's what we're talking about next. Welcome to the Silver Friends podcast! We talk about stuff like this about learning to sit with yourself. My name is Matt J over there is Steve, Good morning Steve, what's up?

Steve: 0:26

Not much Matt, just a beautiful day up here in New England and I'm looking forward to it. So, uhm, all good.

Matt: 0:33

Yeah, I already got my yard worked on yesterday, but I'll find a way to hudder around finding things to do. Here's a question for you, wouldn't you first realize that getting sober didn't automatically make you comfortable with yourself?

Steve: 0:54

It was right away, I mean, you know, I wasn't comfortable myself for years. I mean, that years and years after I got sober. It took me a long time to learn that, and feel that, and even today I struggle with that, right? I mean, that's not... Like, I fixed that because I didn't fix that. But, you know, the program has helped me understand that those are feelings and how to deal with those feelings and how to think about those feelings and how to interact with those feelings. And, as I always love to say, it doesn't mean I always do that stuff perfectly, but... I was very very wolfed to really like, take a deep breath and, you know, I've had some challenges going on in the last week or so, and I really, listen, I'll say, I don't usually say it a lot. Like, I'm proud of myself at how hard I've worked with it. Some of the emotional stuff and not getting too crazy, not getting resentful, and not being punitive when I don't get something that I like and all that kind of stuff, that I was just so much embedded in me, like, damn. And so, that's still a struggle, but I do better with it today, and therefore, the people around me, I think, do better with all that stuff too.

Matt: 2:14

That's to the real winner is, the people around us who don't have to deal with the storm of us, and I wish I did that more perfectly as well. This is a great time to talk about how, just because you're not doing a 12-step program, or recovery perfectly, doesn't mean you're doing it wrong. It was very easy for me, early on, to look at the old timers I admired and figure out, why am I doing it so wrong when they're doing it perfectly? And they don't do it perfectly either. Nobody does. You can put yourself out there and make a best intent. This was early on for me too, realizing that you're not going to automatically be comfortable with yourself. And I think that's kind of the point is to feel these feelings. As I've been going through this medicine taper, I've been thinking about maybe, I thought about this yesterday, maybe this whole, I'm uncomfortable in a more anxious than normal is, I'm actually feeling stuff that I haven't felt for in a long time, and that's what's uncomfortable. And so how do I deal with that? And it goes back to the beginning of how do you deal with these things before you had something of an alcohol? It just was in Ah-ha yesterday.

Steve: 3:45

Yeah, I like those moments. Well, I can't say I always like those moments, because they're not always good Ah-ha. I mean they're good Ah-ha's, but a lot of them is like, Oh, Oh shit.

Matt: 3:57

I mean, it's all good Ah-ha

Steve: 3:58

painful. Right. Ah-ha painful. Ah-ha. Oh, I've been doing this wrong. Ah-ha. Whatever it might be, but it's still the moment itself is still helpful and beneficial and all that kind of stuff. Again, but we always talk about the moment doesn't the Ah-ha doesn't do anything. It's the action afterwards that does something. And you know, when you said something there, I just, know how to deal with, you know, I always talk about this. I talk about it with a lot of people that my emotions were like a roller coaster, right? And I always, my emotions were way up and down. I was either really, and I'm not manic depressive. I've never been diagnosed that. I don't feel like I am. I've done enough talk therapy and stuff. I'm not overly depressive. I certainly have depressive points. I'm not clinically depressive. I

Matt: 4:52

didn't

Steve: 4:52

certainly get down in blue and all those things. But my emotions would ride high and low. And what I felt, what I realized, again, six, seven, eight years into this sobriety, when I really, like, came to terms with it, is it's not only my emotions, but it's my expectations that are connected to those emotions, right?

Matt: 5:16

Oh, tell me more.

Steve: 5:17

well, if I had expectations that something, whatever it might be, it could be a project at home. Right? And a little project I did yesterday, and my next neighbor came over and helped me and I was ever grateful. But there was one little thing I got, I felt like rushed because he was there helping me. There was one little thing I wanted to do, which I didn't do, which probably means nothing to anybody. But just enough of that, like, it just, I look out and go, huh, I wish I did that this way. But what I, what I mean by that is like, so when I have this expectation, again, whether, whether it's a job, whether it's a relationship, whether it's dealing with sex, whether it's dealing with anything. When I have this expectations, and I'm excited about something, right? And then that, that, that, that the reality of that situation, again, whatever it might be, project, movie, trip, go to visit somebody, doesn't work out. I've always said it's the delta between those two things, like how far down do I have to come emotionally from my expectations, right? And, and I used to crash hard, I would crash hard when those things happened, and it would ruin me for days. I mean, it would ruin me for days. I'd be miserable. I'd be resentful. I'd be vindictive. Or just, you know, depending on what it was, I mean, if it was just a project, something, I just would be miserable, you know? Or, you know, so anyway, so I always had a deal with that. And, you know, and then talking to enough alcoholics, I learned that, like, I have to deal, I have to live with that, I have to, I have to, first of all, I have to feel those feelings. That's what you said. I lost my head. You said, I'm feeling feelings that I never felt before, right? And, and it's not that I didn't feel in before. It's just that when I felt my UC blurred, you know, you see poured alcohol into myself, so I didn't have to feel. So now I'm sitting there with feelings that, I have, I don't like them. I don't have my alcohol or drugs to sort of help me with those. So, well, you know, what do I have? How do I do it? And you can sit in it and stew, right? You can white knuckle your emotions just like you could white knuckles your, you know, your urge to drink, or you can do something about it. And that's where listen, it talk therapy helps, right?

Matt: 7:46

you,

Steve: 7:46

If doing therapy stuff, I talk about it all the time. My meetings are sort of group therapy for me. They really are because I share a lot. I don't go to meetings and sit there. I go to meetings and share. And I often talk about what's going on in my life. Some, some very ugly, but I'm when I'm struggling. I'm going to my meetings talking about me struggling. I don't care what anybody thinks about me. I don't care if it's off topic. That's how I survive. That's what I do at my meetings.

Matt: 8:14

I've

Steve: 8:15

lot of. And

Matt: 8:15

gotten

Steve: 8:15

that's

Matt: 8:15

a

Steve: 8:15

why. Yeah. Now that's why I choose the meetings I go to, right? Because those meetings are accepted. There's an acceptance to be able to do that, right? Without a lot of feedback or pushback or you shared too long or you shouldn't share like, I'd never hear that from any of the meetings I go to. And I, nowadays, I can regulate that right now days. I don't have to go on and on and on about it. But man, I go there. And that's. So it's it's a learn experience. Like I have to learn how to do that.

Matt: 8:45

You go to a meeting and you've broken those Unwritten rules for whatever that meeting is.

Steve: 8:50

Yeah,

Frank Rizzo: 8:51

you're a real come on.

Matt: 8:53

You can't. You're not sharing the right way. I've gotten a lot more comfortable with going off topic. And I think you should too. If you're, if you're going on meeting and you're feeling something go. It's, it's really okay. The meetings for you. Oh, God, I had, I had something there from what you said before about sharing. Yeah, I know it was being an active participant. You're going to a meeting. Be as much of an active participant as you can. You're going to get more out of the meeting. There are times that like I just, I don't want to open my mouth or I don't have the words. I try to be an open participant as much as I can because you are going to get more out of it. And you never know. There are times I've gone in and shared something just to get it out. And then I five people come up to me.

Steve: 9:45

Oh, yeah. And

Matt: 9:46

it helps them or they can say, Hey, I have felt that way too. Here's what I did. And the more you open your trap, the more you're inviting somebody else in to give you a solution. And sitting with yourself doesn't mean you have to obey every uncomfortable feeling. It's understanding or that there's an uncomfortable feeling there. And you don't have to drink to get past it. You mentioned earlier about the expectations. And maybe it was you who said this or somebody else the expectations are kind of like the wreckage of the future that you have to be very careful with expectations and I can. I can understand that the expect to I have a certain expectation way this is gonna go and if this doesn't go exactly as planned it failed. I can think that way about my to-do list at work or the things I want to get done around the house and instead of looking at here are all the things I actually did get done. I see the list is incomplete therefore I didn't do it right.

Steve: 10:59

Yeah

Matt: 11:01

and that's that's not the correct thing.

Steve: 11:07

Steve

Matt: 11:07

So no go ahead.

Steve: 11:09

No go ahead. No exactly right. I mean I I happen to me all the time. I like I have a list of things that I want to do and if I don't and this was partly due to yesterday like I said well actually yesterday worked out better than I thought I would even sure. Like I had a project going to do and it was it was well within my well within well I could I could do this project but it would take me a long time and my neighbor shows up who's up who's a builder he's a carpenter and he shows up and he's like hey what are you doing and so I tell him I'm building this wall where I had these doors and he's like yeah what are you doing? And he's talking to me and then I think he's just there to chat before because he works a lot on Saturdays

Matt: 11:49

and

Steve: 11:50

I'm like what he got going you working today goes oh no I just come over here as Steve if you give your hand for a couple hours and we bang this thing right and we bang this thing out in no time you know. So my expectations on that project were met but there's a whole another project I got to do and it's like the side by side projects and it's like I sit there and now I say okay the other project isn't done the other part isn't done the other part and trust me I've been up all morning right I'm up since 5.30 having my coffee thinking about okay you know I got to build some door a little bit more complicated than that one it's like I could be unsatisfied even though this is my point I had such a beautiful day yesterday with this project it all came out great it's done way but faster it was done way faster than I thought literally a few hours rather than all day and yet there's very little satisfaction of this because I got half the project I still have to work on so that is going to just wear on me until I get to that next pair of project. So it's always like like you said when you have a list and you don't get to a certain part of it you feel like okay that was an unsuccessful day I did I did seven out of nine things but it was an unsuccessful day right

Matt: 13:08

I had a great day on Thursday with my list and still felt a little bit like well I've got all the stuff done from the list but is the list that I'm working from is that really are those the things I should have been doing should I been doing something should I have been doing something else and it ends up that ends up becoming something that is an uncomfortable thing and then the next day I've got my list I got quite a bit I was sitting there doing some personal development on Friday and I'm asking myself all right I'm doing some personal development stuff is that the right thing for me to be doing have I made a mistake doing that when the obvious thing is it's good to spend two hours at work thinking out a plan for yourself for the things that you want to work on so that you can develop as opposed to just I've got to dive into the task and that is an anxiety driven thing I have to think about where this used to come from too because it is an echo of the past of fear I think was fear and feeling not good enough were big drivers of this and I think that that's what it comes back to if I don't finish all the yard work that I want to get done it's a feeling of feeling not good enough because I can't get done with other people can and I let the obstacles get in my way

Steve: 14:54

you don't that's why I got Mikey coming over today give me a hand doing yard

Matt: 15:00

yeah

Steve: 15:00

work right that's what it is like that's why you talked about right you you passed off some stuff I've got some other yard work and matter of fact I'll tell you exactly this this whole project I was talking about I tried to reach I reached out to somebody there was somebody in the program who was looking they said they were looking for has from credit card bills and they were looking for some weekend work to try to do some somebody who's done work for me before So I reach out to this person like and like I said, I don't mind doing this. I actually like doing some of this work But I looked at as a way to help somebody else out right he was looking for money He had run up some credit card bills after he got hurt. I was like, hey, are you looking for work for the weekends? I got a couple of projects here that'll be happy to engage you I Would help you doing but we again just like did my neighbor came and helped me we knock it off much faster, right and pay him and He was like no, I can't do it. I'm busy. No, fine fine, right? And I've got some landscaping work like you were talking about right memory of the stuff that you talked about your neighbor Like I would love to have that neighbor I'm not even kidding. I would love to have that neighbor come in and say hey Here's what I want, right What do you think? Walk through it. Help me help me flesh flesh it out Flush it out with an idea and then yeah, you go ahead and do it and I'll pay you and I'll pay for all the stuff, right and boom. It's done But and I'm trying to get better at that. I'm trying to get better at that. It's the old saying the only thing I Hate worst and cutting my grass is paying somebody to cut

Matt: 16:35

my Right

Steve: 16:37

and that's a dilemma for me. Yeah

Matt: 16:39

So

Steve: 16:39

the only thing worse than me paying somebody to do a job that I could do is to pay somebody to do a job So it's always that thing but as I've gotten older I've started to relax a little bit on that and like, you know something I can afford to pay some people to do some work for me. I Won't have to think about it So I've got this whole thing in my head of how I want to transform my front yard to get rid of some of my turf grass and do Some more plantings and stuff like that cuz I hate turf turf grass and you know, but it's a lot if I do it myself two things. It's a lot of work and

Matt: 17:17

Yeah,

Steve: 17:18

over 40 years that 40 years because I haven't really done it over the last 25 years I realized I'm not really good at that

Matt: 17:27

stuff Mm-hmm

Steve: 17:28

And I'm not good at that stuff even though it's just digging holes and Putting plants in the ground I'm just not good at it. So I have to accept that too, right? That's one of the other things right when we start talking about I have to accept it I'm not good at that So maybe I need help with that, right? It's the same thing So maybe when I'm I'm starting to feel these weird feelings and bad feelings and all this kind of stuff Maybe I need help. Maybe I need to talk to another alcoholic. Maybe I need to call somebody and then And then and then see what I could figure out

Matt: 18:04

That is a great recovery Revelation of when you become now comfortable with the uncomfortable thought that there are things that you are not good at And we as people have talents and we have personality profiles. I did a lot of Myers Briggs work in a previous job When I worked at Lego We did a personality profile called insights where you figure out where you get your energy from and We are all different. We weren't designed to be great at everything We're insanely good at a bunch of things and then we're blind on other things And there's two ways you can go about this. You can develop a skill I think there's certain things that we have that we're never going to be great at but we can be confident or We can leverage another talent to be good at something or we can recognize that and ask for help but it is not Option number three is not productive around Thinking through I'm not good at this so therefore I'm bad I'll give you an example when it comes to like that yard work I needed help from my neighbor because there was a lot of overgrown stuff and I wouldn't even know where to begin with Getting rid of it. And if it's an overwhelming task, that's something that just causes me to shut down as opposed to break it in small parts I see it all and I'm like I can never get to this so I'm gonna end up doing nothing right So in that case, you kind of have to ask for help from somebody who can see that stuff Now that he has done that work for me, I can do the work of maintaining it which I had been very good at

Steve: 20:00

You know, it's it's you said it right I get to a point where I get frozen and I do nothing

Matt: 20:06

Mm-hmm,

Steve: 20:06

and I can't do anything and I got several projects now around Around the house and my wife just said to me to the day Something was going on forget what we were doing she's like Are you just wasting, passing time, doing stuff to get to get to a certain point. And I said, honey, I don't waste past time to do stuff. I just select something that's on my list. Like, dude, I've told to this before. Like, I have a running list, mostly in my head of things that I want to do. And then I also try to get an idea of like, how long that project takes and, you know, what could I squeeze in? And I'm constantly like, I have projects that I do when it's raining out, right? Like which are indoor projects, maybe in the basement garage. Like, my whole head is filled with that kind of stuff. And there's so many things out there that I look at and I just go, you know, I've been wanting to do them there. This one project where I had, I had some walls rotten. Like, I knew I had to get to this. And I've been looking at it recently. Like, I got to get to this soon. And it's a, it's a bad time to do it because it is the beginning of the spring season. There's a lots of yard work to do, right? And mowing and cleanup for me to take a whole weekend and do this type of project. But again, this is why I've called up my buddy Mike. And I'm going to pick him up after the podcast. So I'm going to come over and say, hey, Mike, I want you to clean up my yard and mo my yard. I'm going to try, right? Boom, that way, I don't have to do it. That way, that's done for the next week. And I could go on. And that's my way of asking for help. And then Mike is a guy who could use the money again. So I do two things. One is I, I'm able to help Mike out. And we go on retreat together. Typically, what he does is we, he works with me, and then we put a tab up until his retreat is paid off. And then after that, I'll, you know, start giving him cash for anything. And that way, he gets to go to retreat without having to worry about paying for it. Yeah. So again, it took me a while to do that kind of stuff. And then, well, again, it's, it's always, for me, it's always a process. I just sold, I'm such a slow learner, not a slow learner. But man, I'm just.

Matt: 22:30

It's

Steve: 22:31

so hard to drag me to new places, right?

Matt: 22:34

Yep.

Steve: 22:34

It really is so hard to drag me to new places. But I don't know, I'm getting there. I'm working on it. I'm trying to get more, if any other thing is right, then I'm with some of the stuff, right? I have I have a wife and we don't always agree on stuff. So then I got two people to drag to certain places, right? Which always becomes an issue too. Like, hey, I want to do something here. What do you think? And then trying to get two people to agree. And it's a good idea, or timing

Matt: 23:02

that makes me crazy.

Steve: 23:03

Yeah. Um, and we had the same thing. We're having one of our fireplaces just a little bit worked on on it. And I just told her, like, honey, we got to, we've been talking about doing this for years. And I brought in a guy who's done some work for us before he gave me a quote, and I just texted him. I'm like, set it up. I told her that she goes, really, I'm like, honey, we've been talking about it for years. We should do it. We have the money to do it. We should, we should pull the trigger and do again, I know these sound like if you're out there, you're wondering what the hell we talking about, what we're not talking about alcoholism, but we are. We are because these sort of stresses of life,

Matt: 23:40

it. So, um,

Steve: 23:41

these are the feelings. You do the things. Um, these are the things that we've had many arguments in my, in my relationship

Matt: 23:51

which,

Steve: 23:52

with

Matt: 23:52

um,

Steve: 23:53

past when we know I was a drinking man would have caused me to drink. Like if, if we were trying to describe project and I didn't get my way and I was, you know, I was drinking, then I'd be like, fuck this. Yeah,

Matt: 24:10

going off topic is what Bill from sober, not mature loves. If you're not seeing that this is tied into alcoholism, I don't believe you're listening properly. And this is where we with this podcast anyways that all of the stuff in life is our alcoholism, all of it because it is the normal stuff in life that we can't navigate without the help of alcohol. So all of the stuff that feels like, you know, trying to get together a plan to mow my lawn, that in itself is difficult.

Steve: 24:48

Right.

Matt: 24:49

That's, that's alcoholism that we have to learn much later than normal people do how to navigate simple normal things. And that's the, that's kind of the dirty secret of why did I drink? Because I never developed the skills to, to handle the mundane, normal things in life that other people seem to have figured out. I don't think anybody has it figured out, but for us that alcohol was the, the thing that glossed that over and then you remove the alcohol and there's a lot of things that got to work on with, you know, relationships, the damage I had and some of that is How the hell do I figure out the step to mode the lawn then do the weed trimming? For me, it's mode the lawn, do the weed trimming, and then do get the backpack,

Steve: 25:43

blower

Matt: 25:44

on, so I can clean up the grass clippings that are on the street. All of that stuff is you can need a program to help you. There's a lot of that in an AA meeting, which is, how do I do those things? How do I get together a plan to get rid of the weeds that are in front of my yard? That's a lot of what you hear in a meeting. It's not how do I drink, how do we drink better?

Steve: 26:13

Now and again, you're right. Now, if you're new and you're like, "Well, that's not gonna help me, you're right, I get it." If you're new, that's not gonna help. But I'm gonna tell you something. If you're new and if you come to any meeting that I go to, I'm sure any meeting that Matt goes to, we're gonna make sure you get a chance to talk about what's on your mind. We're gonna make sure that one of the things we say in any meeting that the topic can be changed at any time, or if you have something to share, again, these are meetings I go to. I'm sure there's some out there. They want you to stick to the topic. In a lot of meetings, they still do is like, if you're new, put the cotton, take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth. But I don't feel that way

Matt: 26:58

nor do I.

Steve: 27:00

So, if you come there and you share what's going on, two things, two things will happen, you said it earlier. If you share about what's going on, somebody's gonna step up to you after the meeting. Right? They're going to. They're gonna step up say, hey, I can help you with that or I know I can help with somebody, or hey, do you want to change phone numbers? Whatever. Somebody's gonna talk to you about it. And then it's up to you, just like it's up to us to take action and try to accept that help, which is difficult.

Matt: 27:30

That's the second part. That's hard.

Steve: 27:33

It's except that help. And they go, yep, share. I'll give you a call. Let's go have coffee. Let's go get another meeting. Whatever it might, whatever that might be. So, yeah, it's an ongoing process. Again, but it's a lifetime process for me.

Matt: 27:51

I don't remember if I shared this on the podcast or not. I did share it in a meeting a couple of weeks ago. I can't remember who I'm talking to about what. But I talked about tapering off an anti-anxiety medication. SNRI, which affects both the serotonin and the neuroprinephron, or pronouncing that kind of correctly. And this stuff I'm very sensitive to and has been a bitch to get off of. I'm not getting off of it because I don't think I should be on medication, but if you change just something else, you kind of have to get off of one. And I shared that in the meeting that I'm struggling with it, and I'm still struggling with it. And somebody at the meeting texted me. I appreciate you shared that, and it was off topic. I appreciate you shared it. I could relate. I've gone through that in the past, and it was so hard for me, and it started a conversation. There were people came up, gave me a hug, and I wasn't expecting that. And that doesn't seem like, well, how is that alcohol? You're talking about tapering off a medication. You're tapering of something that helped get you through your feelings. This this happens to be a more productive way because it is a pharmaceutical medication that helps you with your anxiety. It's supposed to alcohol. But it is still you're withdrawing from something because you have become dependent upon it. And you have to apply those recovery principles to it. And there are a lot of people who are able be encouraging. And I wasn't expecting that. And it was incredibly helpful to know, even though I've got to get through this pain, I'm not doing this alone. And I think if we feel through some of those uncomfortable feelings, it does change in time. And in your early sobriety, you were sitting with that and say, I can't stand this feeling. As you're growing, you're feeling though, I hate this feeling, but I know it will pass. And then mature sobriety is, this feeling is uncomfortable. But it does not own me. And dammit, I think I might be between growing sobriety and mature sobriety on some things. You're on the you're on that spectrum, that you're not always that mature sobriety. So it's okay.

Steve: 30:16

It's exercising, you know, it's exercising your ability to do emotional things, just like we do our body, we talk about this, right? You can't go out and run a 5k, most of us can't or a marathon or climb a mountain without putting some work in, right? And you have to work yourself up to a place where it becomes something that you can handle. And that's that's the journey that we're on when it comes to our sobriety. It's like how do I work up to a place where all of these emotional and life twists and turns don't ruin me. Don't push me to a place where number one, I lose my shit. And number two, eventually maybe not right away, eventually I just decide I don't care enough and I'll just go out and drink. And those are real possibilities, you know, for many people. I know enough people with lots of good sobriety's who share that they're not immune to picking up a drink.

Matt: 31:23

And

Steve: 31:25

that's why we talk about our lifestyle because as much as we both have some decent sobriety's double digits sobriety's and there are belts. We're not immune to picking up a drink or

Matt: 31:37

no.

Steve: 31:37

And I think that when I become when I think I become immune to it is when I'm really in trouble and that's the

Matt: 31:48

truth. It's not the actual withdraw feelings of alcohol that are going to make me drink at this time. It is the accumulation of other stuff that has happened that I haven't effectively worked through that are going to leave me to feeling hopeless. And if I feel hopeless enough then what doesn't matter whether I drink or not.

Steve: 32:12

At

Matt: 32:13

that point it doesn't matter. I'm not doing any more or less harm than what's going on now. And I can get to that point there's a lot there's an escalation ladder. I'd have to climb up to get there or climb down depending on your perspective. So getting to these things ahead of time is the key and that's that constant work. In mature sobriety the constant work isn't I am what I've been white knuckling it for 10 years. It has been I am managing through life as opposed to early on where you're white knuckling it. But if you put that aside eventually you get to that point where you're at that white knuckle stage. So I want you to walk away with three takeaways today. Schumfer is not failure. Feeling anxious, restless or afraid doesn't mean you're doing sobriety wrong. You don't have to obey every feeling. Feeling can be real without being in charge. Well, that's a hard one for me. And the next step. The next right small thing counts. Spriety's built on small moments where you stay instead of run. So for you listening what's one feeling that you're learning to sit with instead of running from. I'd love for you to email Matt at SoberFriendsPod.com. Steve, getting Sober gives us the chance to stop escaping ourselves, learning to sit with yourself as part of learning that you're safe enough to stay. Thank you for helping me work through this today.

Steve: 33:50

You're welcome, Matt.

Matt: 33:51

We'll see everybody. Yeah, we'll see everybody next week. Bye, everyone.