E261: Outcome vs. Journey- The Control Freak's Guide to Sobriety

Ever feel like you're doing everything "right" in recovery but still find yourself pissed off when things don't go your way? Steve opens up about his biggest struggle even after 15+ years sober: the control freak mindset that gets shit done but also sets him up for resentment, anxiety, and dangerous thinking patterns.

In this episode, we dig into the difference between being outcome-focused (expecting specific results because you did the work) versus journey-focused (trusting the process without demanding a particular ending). Steve shares raw moments from his week—including a family reunion where "normal people" went straight to the bar while he dealt with buried resentment—and how he's learning to recognize when his need for control is actually putting his sobriety at risk.

We talk about:

• Why alcoholics make great control freaks (and why that's both a strength and a problem)
• The dangerous cascade that starts with disappointment and ends with "maybe I should just drink"
• How expecting certain outcomes because you "earned them" leads to resentment
• Why being a caretaker amplifies these expectations
• The skills that keep you from that relapse that starts three weeks before it actually happens

Whether you're brand new to sobriety or decades in, if you've ever thought "I did everything right, so why do I still feel this way?"—this episode is for you.

Transcript

Matt: 0:03

Welcome to The Sober Friends Podcast. You're in the right place if you are just looking for some discussion of all the things that you're dealing with when you want to quit alcohol. Or live a great life after quitting alcohol. My name is Matt J. Steve is with me today. And I'll tell you, uh, we think of serenity prayer, uh, knowing the things that we can and can't control, knowing the difference. That's the hard part.

Steve: 0:36

Mm.

Matt: 0:36

Man, control can be hard. Knowing Knowing that you would, if you could just have a good outcome, if I could just control that would be great and knowing, it really is a lot that we can't control. And I this is, uh, this, this topic is near and dear to you. What does that mean to you?

Steve: 0:57

It, it's something that I've been dealing like, first of all, good morning, Matt and good morning out there in podcast land on this snowy, new, engling day. Um,

Matt: 1:07

snow,

Steve: 1:07

never

Matt: 1:07

this seems to

Steve: 1:08

hear

Matt: 1:08

never

Steve: 1:08

my office. What's What's that?

Matt: 1:12

Snow, this never seems to stop this weekend.

Steve: 1:14

Yeah, well, it's okay. I mean, I like this time of year, I like snow. Um, so sitting here recording this as I'm watching this snowfall, uh, control has been something that's been coming up. First of all, I'm a big control guy. Like, I like the control outcomes. I like to control things. hmm.

Matt: 1:31

Mm

Steve: 1:32

And so it's been something that's been coming up over the last, uh, it's, it's always been an issue, right? It's always been a issue.

Matt: 1:38

Mm Mm

Steve: 1:39

And um, and my wife called me out on it not in a bad way, really the other day a few days ago, just sort of mentioning it again, which is, again, it's,

Matt: 1:49

hmm.

Steve: 1:50

it's something that uh, um, and what I said was that um, I am, I get it. I mean, I talk about it all over the place. I talk about it's one of the reasons why if you go to any meeting that I belong to, um, involved in it, right? I'm doing, I'm doing stuff for that meeting. I'm now doing stuff for a district. Um, because I like to be involved in control and do things. Uh, last night we just had a wonderful, I'm, I'm from a big family. Uh, on my dad's side, I have 32 first cousins. And we try to get together every once in a while and we, we actually dialed something back. And just yesterday we all got together at a restaurant down in Waterbury here in Connecticut. Um, and of course, it was like me and a couple of cousins we ran it. And I even though I didn't 90% of the lag work and I said to my wife, I'm like, yeah, I, I realize I'm a controlled person, but, but I get shit done, right? I mean, that's part of it. Like I get stuff done. So what happens is that people come to me looking to get stuff done.

Matt: 2:55

Mm hmm.

Steve: 2:55

And sort of feeds into that control. And again, so um, and I've been really struggling with this. I really have been and my wife and I had a conversation yesterday. and, um, And um, that was not as nice as the first conversation,

Matt: 3:10

right?

Steve: 3:11

And, and um, and I said to her, like, you know, something, I get it. And I said, one of my frustrations in life. And so I said, one of my frustrations in life is that, um, I think because I do certain things in life and it, it, it goes across all things in my life that there should be certain outcomes because of that. And what I shared on my Friday night mens meeting is that when I become outcome focused is when I'm in trouble. hmm.

Matt: 3:42

Mm

Steve: 3:42

hmm. Instead of being journey focused, right? Really? Instead of being what am I doing? What's the process focus? Um, when I get, you know, when I get the outcome focus mindset, which happens to me on occasion? Um, I, I get myself in trouble. I get myself out of sorts, I get upset. I get pissed off. I get resentful because the outcomes aren't happening. The way I want them to happen. So, you know, this is what sort of what's been known at me. And, you know, I've been challenged on this here at home. And I'm always challenged it in the rooms by the guys who know me. Um, and it's just one of those, I guess, character defects, right? That I struggle with that even after 15 plus years in this program, um, is something that I know I need to continue to work on. So, I don't know. I, you know, this, I'm on my mind. And when we were talking about topics, I'm like, Hey, this is, this isn't the forefront of my mind. So let's,

Matt: 4:40

Yeah.

Steve: 4:41

let's talk about it.

Matt: 4:42

Well, that's a pretty great share. There's a lot there. And I'm thinking about a bunch of different things. That one, how do you handle the control issues and trying to get to an outcome. But then I'm also thinking about the frustration of not getting there, which which, which you're, you're not going to get to exactly where you want to be with control because you're dealing with other people and people aren't perfect. and that frustration of things not going exactly the way you want it to go, that is where needing the outlet and drinking can come from. I can picture this almost like a route, both going forward and branching off all at the same time. And I think a lot about you do need to, it's not an either or with I can't be outcome based. There has to be a general outcome that you're looking for, but I think what is also good is thinking through there could be multiple outcomes, multiple ways to get to that outcome or that the outcome could branch off a little bit and that might actually be better than what I'm thinking of, but then that causes you to have to get outside of self.

Steve: 5:58

Right. Yeah, when I'm able to do that, again, that's right, again, when I shared Friday night, is like

Matt: 6:05

Yeah,

Steve: 6:05

when I'm able to be outside of that results person, person, like I'm really comfortable I'm really satisfied with the journey and all those type of things. And that's what you're talking about that branch that'll take me somewhere else. When I let that happen, I know that things work out better for me. Again, they work out better for me internally, not externally, like not saying like, oh, this is the outcome and like, just internally, I'm less stressed over that kind of stuff. And and I'm better at that.

Matt: 6:35

I

Steve: 6:35

I do that so much better today than I have. But, you know, I've talked about on this thing. I've been a caretaker for my wife for probably close to the last year. We're getting close to where she's becoming way more independent.

Matt: 6:50

We're

Steve: 6:50

But again, you know, it's some of that constant, right? Constant caretaking. Anybody out there who's a caretaker realizes that constant mental physical, more mental than anything else. And again, I just right? And in simply put, I believe, well, because I've been doing this, I expect to be treated in a certain way, which is unrealistic, right? It's unrealistic. My wife's a human person, too. She's not perfect. She has flaws. She has good days. She has bad days. So those expectations are perfect. And I will tell you this. Like I yesterday, I was like, I wasn't thinking about drinking at all. But I was really out of sorts. I was really out of sorts. And if I'm not working the program, if I'm not at my Friday night meeting, back up a little bit when we were talking. My wife and I were talking Friday during the morning. And I was talking about some stuff that's going out with my brother. And she said, you should go to therapy. I'm like, I'm going to therapy tonight with like 20 other guys. Right? Because that's

Matt: 8:04

And

Steve: 8:04

what I look at some of my meetings. And so you know,when I went, I lost my little blood, lost my train of thought, where I was going. But when I went to that meeting, I'm able to talk to those guys and work through some of that stuff. Oh, so yesterday, like I was feeling like really, really anxious, really anxious. And I was working hard to try to get that feeling. I wanted to make sure I went down to meet with my cousins and had a good time, which I knew I would, right? My wife, we were talking about having a good time. And I'm like, listen, I'm going to a place where I think there was 17 of us there. Cause there's more people, but 17 cousins and spouses and stuff like that. I'm said, I'm going to wear these people love me unconditionally, right? There's like, there's no, there's no downside to that. I mean that, honestly, like these were very, we're very close cousins. And I'm like, these people love me unconditionally. So I knew once I got there, I'd be fine. But I'm gonna tell you something. I was pretty, pretty anxious. I was pretty stressed out. And if I don't have a program, if I don't have my Friday night guys, who I went to just before this day, I am walking down that path that's going to lead me to a drink. It's not good. Well, I shouldn't even say it's not going to lead me to a drink yesterday because you know, the normal people, they showed up at this event and went right to the bar, right?

Matt: 9:38

And

Steve: 9:38

Like we had some time in the bar we were all getting together and everybody's showing up. Those normal people went right to the bar area sat down and started drinking, right? I saw that, I saw that and that's the kind of stuff that I have to be careful with. Because not not that so much that I'm gonna try to walk up to that bar and get a drink But it could irritate the shit out of me

Matt: 10:02

Oh, yeah?

Steve: 10:02

so that I come home and I'm restless and discontented and irritable Right and because that used to happen to me a lot when I was on alcohol in these situations I would come home and for the next couple days I would be really really irritable and it took me a wild figure "Oh, I get it because I was just around a bunch of normal people who were drinking and you know something even after 15 years I want a drink like a normal person at times" so that's the scary part with me, right? And this all comes back, right? This is the whole thing to bring it back. It all comes back to me trying to control some stuff that got me Upset in the first place So it's a dangerous situation for alcoholics and if anybody's out there You know if you're listening to this and you have some of these issues who you know what I'm talking about I know there's a lot of people in the rooms who I talked to who share these same struggles So it's dangerous for me who's what it is, it's dangerous and it's you know, so it's good Friday night I have the guys right, Saturday I go to this Sunday morning I get up you and I take, right? So we talk about this all the time we record this podcast. So boom boom boom I have an opportunity to put my stuff out there.

Matt: 11:15

This is where having a program is really helpful This is where Having 12 step meetings are helpful. If you're way into 12 step meetings even better if you're not And you just have a desire to quit drinking you can just stop in and dump your shit There's no rules against that. It is a place to do that. I also go to therapy therapies Very important to me Man, you unloaded a lot here a lot is about control But I think everybody who has a desire to quit drinking or has stopped can I identify with everything you said? Because there's a cascading thing going on the thing I heard about Her there is is an unfairness the normal people have an outlet and I don't I have anxiety They can go get a drink and I can't and now I'm resentful

Steve: 12:08

Yeah,

Matt: 12:08

absolutely now gone from the control it led to anxiety I see people drinking. I'm realizing they have an outlet. I don't have the same outlet. They suck F you

Steve: 12:21

Yeah, you know, and this is the point right that resentful this Excuse me is not always in the forefront of my mind You know, I mean like it's buried back in my mind So I'm not thinking standing there thinking I'm resentful. I'm standing there sort of irritated and pissed off Because I'm resentful. That's not in the forefront of my mind if you can understand that like it's so buried deeply That you know something I still you know, it says in our literature It's the I wish I could quote it but it's the fantasy of every alcoholic To one day to be able to drink like a normal person, right?

Matt: 13:00

Yep,

Steve: 13:00

and I get a lot of people say oh, I don't mind it. I didn't miss it. I love my life. I I Don't miss it. I'll tell you a buddy Timmy Timmy G was Timmy yeah was at the meeting Friday night and he said something and Again, it's one of those things that you hear when you go to meetings and Timmy's like Timmy You know when he's here, he doesn't share a lot, but when he's It's always from the heart

Matt: 13:31

yep,

Steve: 13:32

and he said he goes I have a great life Right, I have a great life, and I love my life Now he goes I have a great life and everything I have my life in my life is because of this program a

Matt: 13:45

And

Steve: 13:47

he goes and I still don't like it Right that you could you can see Timmy's like I'm still like I'm still not happy about it

Matt: 13:55

Yep,

Steve: 13:55

and that's the point like I love my life. I love the opportunity I love that effect. I was down with my you know my cousins I had my grandchildren last weekend like all of that is good But I'm still air to ball time, right? I'm still this alcoholic that has to work work work work work and And again lots of things can trip me out lots of things can trip me out and I said one of the That's been on the forefront that I'm really working hard on Let's say I'm working hard on it, but I I really realized that I have to do some work on is this control issue is Not so much trying to control it's you know, I can control some stuff, but Give up on the outcome a little bit, right get up give up, you know, our buddy Jim our buddy Jim Jim may always says you know you can You can control the event, but you can't control the outcome. Right and that's why me like like even last yesterday, right? I mean Perfect thing. We had already seven people supposed to come to this thing and then we got snow Right and a couple of my cousins live in group homes and they were supposed to come with AIDS and they were invited right we were invited everybody was invited and they were supposed to come with AIDS and my brother who's older doesn't like to drive and he was supposed to come and people didn't show up because of the weather. Right and I'm one of the persons I wanted to show up with my brother and I was really disappointed when he called me like hey we just hit the roads are bad we're not coming. So I have to be you know something I did a lot of work on this thing who I was there we're going to enjoy and we did we had a great time. So it's really about that because you like you said it's cascading one thing leads to another

Matt: 15:45

yeah

Steve: 15:45

so and that's the dangerous point because it'll lead me. You know if I don't pay attention to it it will eventually lead me to a drink and that's the truth from this alcoholic.

Matt: 16:01

It's a boy bill from the sober not mature podcast sent me some emails about hey you guys try to pull yourself back from going off on tangents you should go find the tangents I really like that. So this has been top of mind so a bill this is for you.

Steve: 16:18

Bill's probably talking about he's probably talking about me but go ahead.

Matt: 16:24

I got to say I got to say true to the topic don't go off on the tangent that's trying to control the outcome. But the tangent is important and Bill's right with this when he he was sent me sent me some emails and we're going back and forth. Tangent is important here because sometimes it's not about the control the control is what starts it and then it's a cascading series of events that get you off track. The snow here if you're not in the Northeast the snow here over the weekend has been pissy is the best way I can describe and look at out the window right now it's snowing. This isn't going to amount to like six inches of snow it's going to amount to maybe another inch and the snow that we've had has been an inch at bursts so ground is covered but it's not not crazy but it is enough to be annoying and to cause problems with driving for it to be bad enough that I don't want to go out on the roads. And these people especially this this becomes an issue because driving driving isn't the same. And you maybe you don't see these people very often. And I think the thing that works with me is letting go that hey I can't control this yes they shouldn't come because it's not safe for them. If you're not safe in this pissy snow that's enough just to be a nuisance and nothing else then this is actually a good thing and kind of being open to the experience I'm going to have will be different.

Steve: 18:13

It's exactly right I mean this is exactly right like the people who stayed home should have stayed home there's a question about it and this comes back to the point is that if if I'm focused on this event and again this could you know this could be on anything. If I'm focused on the outcome of this event and then it doesn't work exactly like I said my brother was one the big perk for many reason which I won't go out of tangent about which I understand. And build like you said bill is correct that's sometimes we can do that or I can do that but if if if if I'm going to let my brother not showing up ruined this is my whole point if I'm not if I'm going to let my brother not showing up ruined everything then focus is wrong. And

Matt: 19:02

my

Steve: 19:03

again these are dangerous things for me because I'm an alcoholic for most people are like I just just deal with it whatever go to therapy for me for this alcoholic they're dangerous because they make me anxious they make me resentful they make me irritable and all of those things lead me. They lead me to first think that my life is a piece of shit really like that's why I brought to me into it right they lead me to think that this great life that I have this great life that this my sobriety has given me is somehow shitty and not worth it right that's the first thing that happens and if I let that simmer too much then one of my solutions is to drink

Matt: 19:53

yeah

Steve: 19:53

to make myself feel better. why it's important and that's why maybe some of these little tangents that we're talking about with family and reunions may not seem like they fit into the conversation. But they do and then like you said you throw on into it that all these people first thing they did is walk in and went to a bar and I'm

Matt: 20:14

That's

Steve: 20:14

standing there right I mean it's a it's a perfect storm for an alcoholic to have a relapse. and the relapse might not come yesterday or today tomorrow the me relapse might come in two weeks. I mean that's the danger that's when the relapse might come it might come at that unexpected moment.

Matt: 20:35

Yes, we snapped

Steve: 20:36

right right that unexpected moment that all of a sudden you hear about it like you know something I was driving on the street and I pulled into the package store and I went in and I bought myself a bottle and I have no idea why I did that well you did that you may have done that because two or three weeks ago something started that Cascading that's what I guard against. I mean it. I still guard against that today and That's what I worry about when I get in those situations So it's an ongoing thing. It's gonna for me. It's gonna be a lifelong process until it's not I guess maybe one day I'll wake up and go I'm glad that's over with But I don't I don't know if that's gonna be the case for me.

Matt: 21:22

It's not gonna be the case for me I'm never gonna get over it because I'm in recovery

Steve: 21:27

Yeah.

Matt: 21:28

But the foundation there is I'm an alcoholic I have addiction issues, so It's it's like obesity. I'm in a GLP one drug Here's a control issue that I am down at my at my most I Was at 294 pounds. I'm now at 228 pounds And I have been vacillating for the better part of a month between 225 and 228 Depending on the day. That's where I am, but I'm not I'm really struggling to push past that But I'm also not going up. It's probably worth celebrating at this point. All right I've hit a plateau, but that's also a lot of weight, but I can only think through I'm failing

Steve: 22:17

Right,

Matt: 22:18

I'm failing now there have been a lot of Circumstances that have stopped me. I had my stitches out. I now can go to the gym There were the holidays. There has been stress in my life. I haven't slept well. Those are all problems But I can get back on track This is something I will do with all my life and being on a GLP one drug has helped I'm going to have to be on the GLP one drug for life and maybe maybe I have hit the point where it's time to go up a Dose to get a stronger dose I'm at that next the last level And maybe this is the time to talk to the doctor and say, "Okay, hit the plateau. Let's go to that final dose." That's what's going to get me over the hump But I'm hesitant to do that because it's like there's that one weapon that I haven't used yet

Steve: 23:12

Right,

Matt: 23:12

I don't want to use the last weapon because I don't want to know what if it doesn't work, but it is I Hear that like ten. I still hate my life and I think about you Have a have a better living room than I have. You have this beautiful living room beautiful house What I look at better than my house Tim started gardening after I did He's got a better garden experience than I do he went even Higher on the hog than I did and I think about all those things that you and Tim have that I don't and like damn you guys are miserable I would love to have that

Steve: 23:47

right

Matt: 23:48

and I think it's it's around Be happy with what you have you can't necessarily if this doesn't work the whole well somebody else hasn't worse So be grateful for what you have that doesn't work I think it's just be grateful for what you have Period there is something that what you've accomplished still is good No matter where it is don't don't compare and it reminds me of the style these houses up the street from me where they built in the sole Christmas tree farm where they have these mcmanches and I'm sure that these people whose houses are probably closer to a million dollars if they sold today and have three cargarages Are miserable about something, and I'm like these guys have nothing to be miserable about they have so much more than me And I bet they have misery and maybe their misery's worse than mine and it's not about all those things you have or don't have it's Anyways the here and now and being okay with I I'm looking for a certain outcome Maybe that comes wrong Maybe the outcome yesterday for it's gonna be bad unless my brother can show up Takes you away from Well, who else is here? That I wouldn't be Cognison of that I can now enjoy

Steve: 25:14

yeah, there were

Matt: 25:15

thinking

Steve: 25:15

people there, right?

Matt: 25:16

Yeah,

Steve: 25:17

you know, we I have a cover. We recently we Listed up there's 32 first cousins just so you know, right and I won't go I won't go on a long tense, but there's 32 So we literally literally listed all of us So we all have a number like where we fall in that line and the number one cousin is still alive and lives in Georgia And he came up. We don't see him often, right the old is cousin So there were people there. That was great, but you were saying something there and again This is why we do this and I'm not a list person, right? You have to you talk to people. They write lists They write gratitude list. They write this list. They write that But, but you said something there about the McMansions. I know exactly what you're talking about too. The answer to this, and again, it's there are answers to this. And I'm sure people might suggest them on the email or on the website. And that is being grateful for what I had. I've heard that definition, that gratitude is being happy with what you have, right? It's being happy for what you already have. So, maybe the answer is to do a gratitude list, right? Just not what I do, but sitting here, I'm like, I'm bet you if I wrote a gratitude list every day, I would feel better. And that's the truth. I would feel better. I'd be able to look at these things that I love about my life and go, you know, something? Yeah, this is really shitty right now. It… And a shitty… When I say something shitty, I only mean in my head, right? I mean that. I don't mean in actuality, don't mean like, oh, this is shitty because some so and so is dying. I mean, this is shitty because in my head, I think it is.

Matt: 27:04

Yep.

Steve: 27:04

That's what I'm talking about here. So… So, having that moment to write that gratitude list, or the other thing again, one of the things we talked about in my Friday night meeting was pick up the goddamn phone

Matt: 27:18

and call someone. Yes.

Steve: 27:20

Right? Pick up the phone and call somebody. Right? And then that's the other thing that happens. And that I don't do enough of that when I get in the situation. And yesterday wasn't a good day to do that because there just wasn't a time frame that I really had an opportunity when I was in the thick of all this stuff to do it. But so there are solutions out there too for those listening. There are

Matt: 27:44

simple solutions.

Steve: 27:45

And they are simple solutions. They are, you know, sitting down listen I'm sitting at an in an office that has a door I can close that has a desk and I could sit here and write a gratitude list via a keyboard or a pencil and paper. And I have a telephone sitting here that I could pick and call somebody. And it wouldn't be a problem at all. And our buddy Tim said that, you know, he was like, "Tim was rolling Friday night."

Matt: 28:15

He

Steve: 28:16

said, "And this is the truth." He said, "You know, I hear people saying it's so hard to call people." And he goes,"No, it's not. It's not hard to dial the phone." He goes, "I used to say make those excuses too." He goes, "You pick up the phone. You'd dial it." And that's the truth, right? That's the truth.

Matt: 28:39

I don't agree with him. He's right in the literal In

Steve: 28:44

sense,

Matt: 28:44

the

Steve: 28:44

right?

Matt: 28:45

emotional sense,

Steve: 28:46

right,

Matt: 28:47

of going through that process of, "I'm going to call somebody, and I'm afraid I'm bothering them that they're going to judge me, that I'm silly, those are the things." That actually is a great exercise of dialing somebody is hard. Hard for me. And get out a piece of paper and say, "Why? What is it?" And write down the things that are not hard. Actually holding the phone and dialing the numbers, not hard. What is hard then? And write out what I'm feeling about why it's hard. And you'll be surprised. They're not going to pick up. They're going to laugh at me. They're going to say, "I don't have time for this bullshit today." All of those things, that rejection, that is hard. And although it's a remote possibility, it's a possibility, not realistic, but it's a possibility. And then maybe write out if I call somebody, what good might happen? What good might happen is they might have some of the same feelings. Or I might be catching them at a time where it's like, "I'm glad you called." Or, "Hey, I haven't talked to you at 10 in a long time. I'm excited to talk to you. I'm honored that you have a problem and you wanted to talk to me." Now that changes it and that phone emotionally becomes easier to call. Pick up and connect a call to. I have started, I use Claude for this because Claude AI is really good at being personable. And if you set it up in the right way, it challenge you. I'm like ChatGPT, which tells you, every answer you have is the best things in Slice Bread. Kisses is your ass. Claude doesn't do that if you set it up the right way. You could set up a chatbot with your personality and your issues and here's the background. And then build upon it. And you can ask it some things. I'm feeling this way, help me walk through the process and it will guide you and it won't bulge at you because I did that yesterday with an issue. And it told me,"Stop. You are wrong in how you're thinking and here's why." These are, and I say it's not to us be all end all, but things like that as an example could be a problem-solving outlet of just a brain dump that is like writing it all down into a piece of paper than the paper responding back to you, helping you understand that. All helpful things. The chatbot is nice because if I have something embarrassing, I'm not telling a real person.

Steve: 31:31

Right.

Matt: 31:32

And I able to get that out of my head and realizing, oh this isn't as silly as I thought.

Steve: 31:38

You know, just one thing before we close here, because we're running out to the end, that's an absolutely fantastic idea. Doing this, put down a list of why am I afraid to call what's stopping me from calling. And then good things and bad things. And one of the persons who started sharing this, the person who is sharing this is someone who's asked me to take them to the steps again. They've already been through the steps, but they want to go to them again. And they're the one who shared that they have trouble calling. We don't, we don't talk to each other. We don't call, I don't call that much. And it's a perfect way to put together a program and say, hey, let's sit down and do this together. Like what is it that stops people from calling. So that, t for that.

Matt: 32:27

Yeah.

Steve: 32:27

Thanks for that suggestion. I think that's a great suggestion.

Matt: 32:31

That'll be my sub-stack this week. I'm inspired to actually write something this week.

Steve: 32:35

Yeah.

Matt: 32:35

It'll be different from the podcast I can just get to that and it actually will be emotional sobriety for me. And hey, the sub stack is at is I shouldn't say at now. The sub stack is pause sober friends pod.com. You can also email Matt at sober friends pod or on all the socials there ways to get ahold of us. We love the feedback and we will put it on the podcast. All right, Steve, I hope you feel better. Hope this was good therapy for you.

Steve: 33:06

Listen, I honestly feel better already, just

Matt: 33:10

Nice.

Steve: 33:10

because we've had a half an hour to sort of hash it out. And that's that's what we do. Thanks, Matt.

Matt: 33:16

You're welcome and we'll see everybody next week. Bye, everybody.