E265: Carrying the Message (Without Being Preachy)

"Carrying the message" doesn't mean becoming Mr. AA or giving speeches at speaker meetings. It's not about recruiting, arguing on Facebook, or diagnosing strangers.

In this episode, Matt and Steve talk honestly about what carrying the message actually looks like — and why it has nothing to do with preaching.

Steve shares the story of his first AA meeting: lost, confused, and terrified. Then someone reached out with a simple handshake and said, "Hey, I'm Mike. How you doing tonight?" That moment changed everything. Not because Mike gave him a Big Book speech, but because he showed up and made him feel human.

Matt breaks down his approach: "The number one thing I can do to share the message is to live a good sober life and not be a prick." He talks about being the kind of person who makes others curious about recovery — not through preaching, but through the quality of his life.

We discuss:

• Why "attraction not promotion" actually works in practice
• What it means to be "the only Big Book someone might read"
• Steve's realization: "I don't want to be the guy people think would be better off drinking"
• How carrying the message looks different at 3 months vs. 15 years sober
• The story of the 11-month chip and the 38-year chip at the same meeting
• Why newcomers carry the message too (even when they're struggling)
• Matt's exhaustion from travel and why taking care of yourself IS carrying the message
• The real reason Steve keeps his Monday night meeting going

The conversation gets real about Steve's neighbor asking him to walk the dogs, his grandson's birthday party, and why being wanted at family events is the whole point of doing this work.

Bottom line: You don't have to be perfect to carry the message. You just have to live well enough that when people hear you're in recovery, they're curious instead of skeptical.

If you've ever felt uncomfortable about "carrying the message" or thought it wasn't your place because you're too new, too flawed, or too tired — this episode is for you.

Transcript

Matt: 0:04

… Welcome to the Subur friend's podcast. Hey, you're in the right place if you're super curious. Are you looking to get a little … getting your ears each week? My name is Matt. Over there is Steve. What's going on Steve? Welcome to the show.

Steve: 0:21

Good morning Matt. Thanks for having me. Always look forward to getting on here and talking a little bit and, you know, putting whatever this is out to the podcast world and, you know, hopefully somebody will listen to it and get something out of it. So always happy to be here and

Matt: 0:39

this

Steve: 0:40

do

Matt: 0:40

one person

Steve: 0:41

on a Sunday morning.

Matt: 0:43

Yeah, if it's one person who gets something, then it's worth it. And what we do here is, say we carry the message, do our best and that's the topic today. Of carrying the message, when people think carrying the message they think, speaker meeting, they think I'm not ready for that. That's for old timers. But, carrying the message means a bunch of different things, and for me, I think it's different things. We try to carry the message to alcoholics, but it looks like different things and it's not necessarily pushing it. I think it means much different things. Just off the top of your head weigh your initial thoughts on the topic.

Steve: 1:29

Well, carrying the message is, well, you know, this topic has come up recently in several of my meetings.

Matt: 1:35

Oh, no, okay.

Steve: 1:35

In different ways, not always as this the way we title it. But,

Matt: 1:40

certain

Steve: 1:41

things. But anyway, so I always talk about my initial introduction into recovery, which was AA for me, and that I was at a meeting and I was lost and I was new, and I literally had no idea how to negotiate it, and so many reached out to Han, said, "Hey, I'm Mike. How you doing tonight?" That's what it is, right?

Matt: 2:03

That

Steve: 2:04

simple thing, reaching out to me at that meeting, and then doing more after that, acting on that too. But doing more of that little handshake, I'll never forget that handshake in that initial conversation that I had with that person. And so when I look at that, and how much my life has changed since I found recovery, and how, what a beautiful life I have, I just feel like I gotta try to give that back to the next suffering alcoholic, right?

Matt: 2:34

yes,

Steve: 2:35

And that again, and that doesn't mean I have to be Mr. AA or Mr. Recovery, and be out there, and shout, you know, that doesn't mean that there are people out there who do that, they're great. I love them. I know a lot of them, but it just means that I need to make myself available to carry that message and let people know. So it's a variety of things for me today, it means different, it absolutely means something different to me today than it did five or 10 years ago. And that's part of the program of recovery is like things change. So yeah, I'm interested in deep diving into this topic today.

Matt: 3:10

It's broader for me, and I think it's very easy to look at carrying the messages, well, that's what sponsorships for. No, for me, for the most part, it's about how I conduct myself, so that if somebody wants, if somebody is open to what I talk about, they're willing to address me, they're willing to reach out to me and ask for help. So I don't look at this as preaching or recruiting, nor arguing on Facebook, nor trying to diagnose people. It's really what is happening to you and what recovery looks like and being available. To me, the number one thing I can do to share the message is to live a good sober life and not be a prick of, of just the quality of my life, how I treat people and trying not to be a hypocrite. And when people hear that I'm in recovery, they might be attracted enough to ask, what did you do?

Steve: 4:32

Yeah.

Matt: 4:33

And then I can go into it.

Steve: 4:35

Exactly. Like one of the things in AA is that you have to act a certain way because

Matt: 4:41

Yep.

Steve: 4:41

you may be the only version of the

Matt: 4:44

book that somebody

Steve: 4:44

big I see. Right? So you, you, and what they say, like you always have to act like you have to do your best to always act like that. And I agree. Like that's it. Right? You want you want to make it. The other thing we talk about is AA is a it's a program of attraction rather than promotion, meaning we don't go out in promotion. We don't have billboards without signs. Uhm, what we want to do is exactly what you said, we want to hold ourself and carry ourself in a certain way that , that some people could look at and go, Huh? i see how Steve's doing that, see how Matt's doing that.

Matt: 5:20

Yep.

Steve: 5:20

I wonder, right, I wonder what they did, right, if they have, so a lot of my friends and family, right, extended, uhm, some knock, some close friend, obviously my kids and stuff like that. They know my story, right? So they know that i've struggled. And that yet, I have found a new way to, to do stuff, so they know and I've had my, my son has actually called me about somebody that he knew who might be struggling and asked me for some advice on it, right? That's what I want out of life. They don't need to come and ask me to be their sponsor, they don't

Matt: 5:57

No.

Steve: 5:57

need to do it, and I'll be happy to have that discussion with everybody, I tell everybody that all the time when they ask me to, if I want, if I want, I want to sponsor them, I say let's talk about it, let's, let's see how that looks. But I want people to see a person, what I don't want somebody to see is me behaving in a way that somebody might think, man, that guy would be better off drinking.

Matt: 6:23

Yes,

Steve: 6:23

yeah, right? No, like that guy would be better off drinking rather than trying to do whatever he's trying to do, I don't want that. And I lived that life for a while. Like there was, there was, there was, like nobody was telling me I'd be better off drinking. Maybe people thought it. But I lived that life and I today and this is just the whole point like my recovery has changed so much that today I realize like no, I don't want to be that guy, I want to be the guy who shows people that now it is recovery, you know, good is, is available. But as we say in our Friday night meeting, we can live a level of life better than I best I've ever known, right? We read that and build story. And that's what, that's why we have that theme in our Friday night meeting, right? I'm living a life better than the best I've ever known because I've been able to get sober, not only stop drinking, right? But work a program that allows me to grow and enhance my life in a way that, I hope people appreciate and like.

Matt: 7:30

I think about what a good meeting is that carries on the message. And I think the best meetings I've gone to are where that core group of people who have sobriety you look at them and say, I can't imagine that these people had alcohol problems. They seem pretty normal and they seem pretty measured that is the best type of advertisement for recovery of, wow, these people say they had a problem seem pretty normal to me.

Steve: 8:05

Yep. yeah,

Matt: 8:07

If you,

Steve: 8:07

that's it.

Matt: 8:10

If you've got that, that's, that's a pretty good example. What would you say, how would you define the difference between attraction and not promotion? What do you think it means for AA,

Steve: 8:24

I mean, it means exactly what you know, I had the opportunity to sort of address this several weeks ago when I was asked about my recovery in a group of people. And I was able to say, again, you know, sometimes it feels a little weird, but I bought into, I was able to say it could, I was asked about this podcast actually. And I said, yeah, I'm in a 12 step program. Right. So number one, I didn't. I didn't identify myself as part of AA. Right. And that's, you know, and we always talk about that. Right. Why, why don't I deliver, why don't I do that? Why, why do we say don't identify yourself as part of AA? And that's because we're human beings. And there was a time where I was out there acting like a jerk.

Matt: 9:16

Yes.

Steve: 9:17

If you asked me if I was in recovery, I would have told you yes. If you asked me how I did it, I would have told you AA, but I was, I was not someone. Who anybody would have pointed to and said, oh, that's what you get out of the bro. I was that person who if I was, I wasn't in touch with my AA friends, they would have said, oh, you're better off drinking. Well, those guys would have said, I'm like, Edson would have told me like, you're better off drinking

Matt: 9:43

Yeah.

Steve: 9:43

than what the way you're acting now. Just go out and drink. So that's the, that's the problem. So I was able to say I'm in a 12 step recovery program. And I do a podcast. And I talked a little bit about this podcast. And I had somebody said, you know, I had actually a church leader come up to me and say, 'Oh, I have to check out your podcast, right?' And I don't know if he is, I don't know the man. and told this friend that they did not have to worry about my anonymity, right, th anytime I could be helpful, they were, I gave them permission to out me. And that's my choice, right? Everybody doesn't need that. And 10 years ago, 15 years ago, I wouldn't have done that, right, I wouldn't, I was not in a place that I would have given that permission. But today I can, because today I do think that I hold myself in a way that can reflect on this program that, just like you said, they could look at me and go, 'Wow, Steve's got a pretty good life, Steve's acting in a pretty good way, you know, how's he doing it, right?' I remember my life being out of control. And by that, I mean in my head, right, that's what I mean in my head, my life being out of control. And so it's important that we don't have promotion because what happens is, for the next thing you know, Steve's out there drinking, then all of a sudden it becomes, oh this program doesn't work, right? And we certainly see a lot of that on social media, people banging on AA saying, it's a cult and it doesn't work and this and that. And I get it, I get it, I get why people feel that way. But I don't want that. So I want to, I just want to show how I, and that's the whole thing, you know, get back to carrying the message. That's the whole thing about sponsorship. I am still to this day amazed when someone come up to me and says, hey, will you sponsor me or hey, will you take me to the steps or hey, will you do this with me? I'm still a bit like me. You're asking me for that. Like, but obviously I do something right, because I don't, I don't raise my hand like if somebody says in a meeting, if you're available sponsorship, raise your hand, I'd never raise my hand. I just don't do it. It's not the way I do it. But people on occasion will come up and ask me for some help and, and I try to help them. And I, so I think that goes to the fact that I'm living a life that people recognize as

Matt: 12:33

Yeah.

Steve: 12:34

doing, doing something right. And, you know, I listen, I'm randomly on here a little bit, but I just remember, it's also said that you couldn't have gotten me sober until I was ready to get sober. You could have preached to me, you could have told me, you could have promoted a, but until I was ready to walk into those rooms and do the work and put down the drink. It wouldn't have worked. So I could have been promoted as much as I want. And nothing would have worked until I was ready, until somebody came up to me and showed me how to do it. And then I was ready. I was ready to listen and do some work.

Matt: 13:17

This moves into a little bit about what carrying the message is not carrying the message is not fixing people. It's not about being someone's therapist. It is not about burning yourself out or saying yes to every sponsor. It is not about the outcome. You cannot get somebody else sober if they don't want to be sober. You can be a support mechanism, you can follow up, you can help out, you can give advice. But it's on them that you have done your part if you have been willing to help. That's all you have to do. This is not like at work where it's all based on a KPI and the, the, did you reach the goal of success? The goal of success here is not the outcome for the other person. It's for you being available and being kind and being of just available and giving the right message and being tolerant. That's how I look at it.

Steve: 14:24

Yeah. There's no question. And that's, that's a perfect reason why again, I'm the social media thing where people bang on a, a, they talk about the failure rate and how it doesn't get people sober and you just hit it. It's like one of the arguments with that is, yeah, a, a, probably, you know, doesn't have a great success rate. Number one, they probably, they're probably hitting more alcoholics than any other program. I'm sure they are. But it's, but everybody who's doing that work, everybody who is reaching out, like I said, trying to help them all. Those people are staying sober, right?

Matt: 15:00

Yes.

Steve: 15:00

When I, when I help and all the other alcoholic, this is what we talk about. I'm staying sober. Yeah, I may not get him sober, or her sober, or whatever it might be, but I'm staying sober. So that's the success, right? The success isn't, isn't, like you said, it's not a measurable success as to, yep, I got 12

Matt: 15:37

but

Steve: 15:37

guess what, I'm sober, too. That's, that's the success, right, of going out. And I want to step back, like there's a little bit of that carrying the message that is of the service work, right? It is speaking at meetings for some of us, like I, absolutely right. I do that. I take a meeting, my Friday night group had a commitment last year to take a meeting on one Tuesday a month, the second Tuesday of the month into a, it was a detox facility which they now turned into a whole rehab program. And there was a waning interest in doing that. And I loved when I had that commitment, like I would take it once or twice a year. And I loved it. Every time I did it and I had new sponsors, I would take it with me and it was really a good commitment. And, and I could see that the group was interested in, I, I put it my hand, like hey, I'll take that commitment, like I'll take it. It's one more meeting a week a month, right? It's 12 more meetings in a year.

Matt: 16:40

Yep.

Steve: 16:41

And I get to go into a detox. And now, like I said, now we recovery program and talk to people who are on the front lines, right? Just trying to figure this stuff out. And that's a perfect example of I give my phone number to many of the guys up there, I tell them to come see me on Friday night or Monday night or Wednesday afternoon. And I've been doing this for probably 18 months now. And no one has ever called me from that commitment.

Matt: 17:10

Yeah.

Steve: 17:10

And that doesn't matter to me. Right? It's like, I don't go well, I'm not going to show up because nobody ever calls me. Maybe they found, maybe they heard something that I said and they're at a different meeting and they're, and they have a great life and they don't remember me enough to know how to find me. I don't know. Like, that's, you know, so those type of commitment, I was supposed to speak tonight, down in Norway, which is like a 45 minute ride from my house.

Matt: 17:36

Yep.

Steve: 17:38

And for somebody who had a commitment, and I took it because I do those things. I do take the, I like doing those commitments. And then my son. So I didn't have a birthday party for our grandson. So we're going down there instead. And so I switched with somebody and I'm going to speak next Saturday, next Sunday. And I like doing that. I like every once in a while going out and going to a speaker meeting and telling my story, especially when it's a 45 minutes away, like I'm going to go there and not know anybody, right? And they're going to hear something, if you do any speaker meetings around this area seems like speakers sometimes can be hard to get maybe hear the same speakers. I like those meetings where they're far away, where I could go. There's nobody there gives them a different view on it.

Matt: 18:27

Yep.

Steve: 18:27

They get to hear somebody different. Yeah, it'll it'll take up three hours of my Sunday night. Right? That'll take up 45 minute right down probably, you know, but I got to get there, you know, 20 minutes early due to meeting, which is an hour come back. So I'll leave probably six o'clock and we'll get home until nine o'clock, right? And that's okay. And that's okay because it's one night. And it's how I carry this message. And it's how I do some service work. And just like we talk on this podcast, if I go down there and one person can take away something that I said, like I've done it and speaker meetings, right? That one person can do that. Then I'm okay. And, you know, so, so I still like that. And then the other part of carrying your message is doing some service work on a higher level, but there's in your meeting, we talk about doing work on a district level. Right. That's the other way I carry the message is try to make sure, mediums are organized out there so that they're available for other alcoholics defined

Matt: 19:32

rights

Steve: 19:33

lots of ways to carry this message.

Matt: 19:36

I really look at service work as one of those ways of carrying the message. I'm the speaker. I'm not the speaker. I'm the chairperson this month, which gets me to a meeting when last couple of weeks, I was pretty exhausted from weekend travel and I got there because I had a commitment. And running a meeting effectively is a way of carrying the message that if you can run a meeting effectively, it's an if you have an opportunity to make it an effect of me, to structure it the right way that somebody comes in and has a good feeling about that meeting and may want to come back. But you do get to the dirty secret of carrying the message is it's mostly for me.

Steve: 20:21

Yeah.

Matt: 20:22

That if you get a benefit, that's a bonus, but I stay sober. If we all do our best to carry the message, we all get a benefit. And if we're getting a good benefit from that, that should carry over to somebody else. She grabbed a percentage.

Steve: 20:40

Yeah, the biggest thing is try not to keep score right like I said try not to keep score of how you're doing with other people. Keep keep your own score. Right. How are you doing with yourself is is carrying the message is helping somebody is it helping. Because they can get frustrating. Trust me, I've worked with lots of guys. It can get frustrating that you're like, oh, God, man, I'm giving up an hour and a half or two hours, you know, I had a sponsor you couldn't stay sober, could stay sober. Like we'd put a year together, months together, boom, all of a sudden, next thing you know, and he kept, but he kept coming back. So what am I gonna do? Kick him out? Maybe some people might say kick him out, let him go. And I did that finally, right? Finally, I was like, hey, this isn't working. You know, but for about three years, I would meet with this person whenever he wanted to meet as much as I would not want to do it. Sometimes, sometimes not all the time, but I would also find out that when I was working and got taking this person through the steps, I can remember sitting there going, oh, this is great. I remember thinking, oh, this is my programs on fire. So yeah, try not to keep score as to what your record is or how other people are doing, keep your own score of how you're doing. Is it helping you? And it is one of the reasons why I take commitments at meetings, just like you said.

Matt: 22:03

Yup,

Steve: 22:04

is that it gets me to these meetings, right? And I pick up my our buddy Mike and take him to Monday night meetings. And there's plenty of nights on Monday nights where I just don't feel like going to that meeting. And you know, have to a lot of times, Michael, be, hey, go into the meeting tonight. I'll go with you, right? And

Matt: 22:21

yep,

Steve: 22:22

gives me a reason like, okay, I have to go to meetings. I got to pick up Mike because Mike doesn't drive. I got to take Mike to a meeting. And how many times have I walked into that meeting with a headache tired exhausted and every time that happened that happens frequently. I walk out of this meeting and I no longer have a headache. I mean this, honestly, I no longer have a headache. I'm no longer tired. I just feel better, you know? And so, you know, it's just, it's really interesting how this program works for us and for me, especially. And it's just that doing stuff, i was mentioned on Friday night, doing stuff that I don't want to do is what keeps me sober, right? Spending time with other people helping out, you know, going to talk at meetings. Sometimes I don't want to do that stuff. It is what is the core of keeping me sober.

Matt: 23:25

Yeah, last two meetings. If I, i I wasn't the chairperson, I probably wasn't going because of how exhaust that I was two weeks ago, especially, I didn't sleep in ball. I didn't sleep in Pittsburgh.

Steve: 23:38

Right.

Matt: 23:39

At all one of those nights, I just didn't sleep at all. And I was just hanging by a thread. The Pittsburgh trip ironically, I slept a little better. It wasn't as tired, but still it was like, Uh-huh. This is hard. Now, it helps that I took the day off. But that is also, that is also part of carrying the message of when you're really tired, sharing with people, this is how you take care of yourself.

Steve: 24:02

Yeah.

Matt: 24:03

So that you're not hanging by a thread. And I had to take care of myself. And I can share that. And there are some people who have told me in meetings, hey, they like to hear a history lesson from me that I'm good at explaining here are the things between the lines that Bill's talking And everyone person said, I kind of like when you share that, okay, great. I'm great. I can have that that level of value. And there is a way that if you're newer, you can share the message. And I remember old-timers telling me this type of stuff. If you're brand new, shake hands, get a phone numbers, come early. If you're new, sharing, especially if you're struggling because you might be, you might find this hard to believe. But the people who have been around a while like to hear that I like to hear the new person, it reminds me of a time when I was new. The mind wants to forget the pain and only remembering the nostalgia. So it is good to hear that. But it's encouraging to me to see somebody getting it. It makes me feel a little bit better. So this isn't just about the older person caring the message. This is about somebody who is new carrying the message to even if they're struggling,

Steve: 25:30

especially if they're struggling.

Matt: 25:31

Yeah. Oh.

Steve: 25:32

Especially if you're struggling. I tell people what are the gifts I've gotten and people know this? They go to me this week? Is I share? And I share my shit? Like I share what's happening in my life. When I'm when I'm being, when I feel like I'm being beat up, which has been this whole you last year and I'm winding, yeah, and sometimes it sounds like I'm whining, but it's what I need to do at the time. Like it's an incredibly important to share for newcomers when they're struggling. Because number one, you know, I have a friend who been reaching out to me a lot and he even talks about it. It's like, ah, I feel like I'm just calling up and whining and bitching on the phone. It's like, no you're calling, you are maybe calling up whining and bitching, but it's OK. It's OK. Because if that's what you need to do instead of not drinking, then that's fine. You call me up. There's plenty of us who will take, take your phone call. But it's him, it's incredibly important for people who have some body to watch, to struggle. It is. It's not that we don't wish it on people. We wish everybody who came in would get it and be happy and live a great life. But it's important to watch it so that we could go, huh, that's me. If I don't watch it,

Matt: 26:48

yes.

Steve: 26:48

Right? And I mean again, there's a lot of people who don't feel that way, but I don't feel like, no, that's me. If I don't, if I don't watch what I'm doing, if I don't do the work on a regular basis, that's me. I shared about it Friday. If I don't do this work, right early on a regular basis, I will drink. There's no question about it. I will drink. I know that I'll meet today, so I know I need to keep doing this work. Maybe that one day I wake up and I'll think to myself, oh, I'm done. I'll never, like I'll never feel that way again. But I'll be 68 years old this year. I don't feel that way today. I don't feel like I'm going to wake up tomorrow and think no alcohol has no drag, no, no pull to me. No, still does. Because I'm an alcoholic. So it's so important to for the newcomer to share that. My Friday night meeting, we go out chips. We go in monthly and yearly chips. And I just love it. We had a guy pick up a 38 year chip, and a guy pick up an 11 month chip. Yep. And the guy who picked up an 11 month chip, just three, three months ago now. So he was eight months, sober, seven months, sober, lost his 14 year old son. You know, in a motorcycle accident, a dirt bike accident. And because he was within a group of guys who really loved him and took care of him was able to get through all of that. Right. He shares about it. His wife. Right. Kid's mother was took the root of drinking more

Matt: 28:34

yeah,

Steve: 28:34

over that situation. Right. Understandably. Right. Again, not judging at all. Understandably. But yet he was able to stay sober with the help of his friends in the program. And it was just to wash the smile on his face. Get 11 months was incredible. Right. So you know, when I look at that, that whole thing, you got a guy who's 38 year sober comes to this meeting just about every week.

Matt: 29:06

Yep.

Steve: 29:06

Right. And then you guy with 11 months, when I when I see that, I go, man, I love coming to this meeting just to see that, you know, the program works. Right. The program works. It's not an easy program. We don't always love it. You know, but you know, I just need to put my head down. Sometimes I just need to put my head down and do the work, whether I want to, especially when I don't want to do it. That's, that's the key that I'll tell everybody, especially when I don't want to do that work.

Matt: 29:38

need.

Steve: 29:38

That's what I

Matt: 29:39

Right.

Steve: 29:39

I need to do it then because that's when I need it the most. And for me, it's worked out. You know, I get to go down, like I said, I was supposed to speak tonight. And instead, I'm going to my three year old grandson's birthday party, you know, that might think that might seem small to some people.

Matt: 29:57

No,

Steve: 29:58

but that's not small to me. The fact that I'm wanted, right, that I'm wanted down there, not not, and not only by my son and the family, but by my grandson who knows me and spends time with me and loves to come to my house and sleep over with Papa, like that's it for me. You know, so, um, that's why I do this work. I do this, I do this work. So I could go to that birthday party, right. And enjoy it and be part of it. And so I'm, I'm blessed, you know, I'm blessed. I'm blessed that, you know, we started taping a few minutes later today because my neighbor reached out to me and said, Hey, do you want to go out walk the dogs together. And he's done that before and I keep. Right, and I say no, I can't and sometimes I just miss it, it doesn't work out and my first reaction was no, I can't, I got the podcast and I realized well,

Matt: 30:49

ah,

Steve: 30:49

it's

Matt: 30:49

you can

Steve: 30:49

about,

Matt: 30:49

always pause that

Steve: 30:50

right and it did right. So I said it's only it's about a 25 minute loop. So I just sent you a quick text. Hey, I might need 10 minutes this morning. So I was able to get it and have a little conversation the dogs got to run around in the woods and still come in and do the podcast, right.

Matt: 31:05

Yep.

Steve: 31:06

So, um, that's, that's, I don't I'm entirely grateful that somebody took some time to pass this message onto me. You know, you and I, we we done a lot to keep that Monday night going,

Matt: 31:21

meeting going.

Steve: 31:22

Right,

Matt: 31:22

Yeah. Yep.

Steve: 31:23

that's what we do. That's passing the message. We have a meeting that people show up at, you know, um, I'm, I'm, I'm internally grateful for it and I try to show that gratitude by giving back, which is carrying a message, you know, it's,

Matt: 31:39

um,

Steve: 31:39

yeah,

Matt: 31:41

well, we'd love to hear about how you carry the message or how you feel about that or how the message was carried to you, Matt, at soberfriendspod.com, the website, sober friends, pod and you can find us on social media at soberfriends pod. Thanks for carrying the message with me this week, Steve.

Steve: 32:00

Hey, Matt, thanks for having me.

Matt: 32:02

We'll see everybody next week. Bye everybody.