E266: Doorway or Loophole?

You've heard it a thousand times in the rooms — take what you like and leave the rest. But what does that actually mean? Matt and Steve dig into one of recovery's most repeated phrases and ask the question nobody wants to answer: are you using it as a doorway into the program, or a loophole out of it?

From the opinions of the old-timer who never shuts up to skipping Step 4 because it makes you uncomfortable — there's a real difference between leaving what doesn't belong to the program and leaving what just challenges your ego. The guys also get into why sitting with discomfort is where the real work lives, and why being average might be exactly enough.

Honest, a little uncomfortable, and not preachy. Just two sober friends talking about the stuff that actually matters.

Transcript

Matt: 0:00

When I feel like there's that challenge, whatever that challenging thing is that rocks my world a bit that makes me want to have the equivalent of run up to the mountains. What I think that really is saying to me is where I think my life is together. It's an illusion I have nothing. Everything is awful. That's also not true. We don't learn when everything is comfortable. We learn when it's uncom. So this is the difference between I'm going to ignore what's uncomfortable for me versus I'm going to ignore. really isn't relevant or I'm looking at that and saying yeah I don't think that's either true or helpful and that's a tough thing to filter out but then how do we embrace the discomfort because in any any part of our life that's where we learn is getting in that discomfort phase. Welcome to the SilverFriends podcast. Here's a place if you're so curious or you have some sobriety we need that meeting in a pocket. Place to be my name is Matt J over there with Steve what's going on Steve.

Steve: 1:10

Not much Matt how are you doing this morning?

Matt: 1:12

I'm doing well. Think I'm okay I started doing a little research on what this topic could be like going to read it and the and the alcoholics anonymous subreddit it's not a red run. It's not a subreddit run by a itself. It's just a discussion place and I jump in there from time to time to see what people are saying and they and somebody who was 11 day sober. Mentioned about their sober but I don't know about this higher power thing and there were a whole bunch of responses from you got to read we have is is take what you like a doorway to recovery or is a loophole out of it should start there Steve.

Steve: 2:27

Sure. One thing you said that you know I loved the way you put it is how did you say reagnostics is conversion therapy.

Matt: 2:39

Yes. That kind of hit me hard.

Steve: 2:42

Right.

Matt: 2:43

I'm like

Steve: 2:44

hmm right huh right. Certainly don't want to go down that rabbit hole on this podcast that's not what we're talking about but it made me think once you said it, because it's one of those things I've never heard. Listen I'm a it's a touchy situation of take what you want leave the rest right it does give certain people sort of license to disregard a lot of the important parts of the program and I think it can be a doorway out of recovery and out of the 12 stuff for sure.

Matt: 3:27

Yeah definitely

Steve: 3:29

I don't think there's any question like yeah I'm not gonna do that I'm not gonna do that I'm not going to do that I'm not going to do that I'm not going to do that I'm not going to do that, but I don't think it's met in that fashion right I think it's met in the fashion that I think a lot of that does revolve around your higher power that I think that's a big part of it is like okay, although when you really dig into the big book I'm not sure that's the case both does say sort of take take what works. For you and but I think most of that when you hear today we valves around the higher power like if you don't like that just don't worry about it. But it's tricky it's tricky because I've seen very few people come into this program that I know and they may be out there. And sort of half-ass this program and really and really have success and by success I don't mean not drinking I mean having a sober life that is that is well rounded and good in in fulfilling and fruitful and all those things which again to me doesn't include happiness because happiness comes and goes with life events and stuff like that. But you can still have a really good life, so to me I could never tell a newcomer yeah let's let's skip over step four because you don't want to do step four or five right will go right to six and seven somehow we're gonna try to guess what your character defects are and we're not gonna work on those or we're gonna skip over eight nine you're not going to go out and make amends to people. Now I do think there are people including myself that- Maybe don't do all that like they don't do that 10 step where you do stuff in the morning right that's a little bit of take what you want like that to me I don't do that regularly People do it religiously so there's a lot to it. There's a lot to dig out from underneath that and Yeah, it can be it can be tricky But it also it can bring you in I guess is what I'm saying like it can bring certain people in who don't who are having struggling with all of the concepts of it But I do think it could also give you a loophole to not work on the program and work on yourself.

Matt: 5:59

Right I do That's really where I guess we skip to the end here not my point, but we skip to the end of It's kind of the opinions that this phrase is there for it's not for what would be considered the facts It's about the opinions

Steve: 6:17

Yeah,

Matt: 6:18

and to me The foundation of an a a program is what you see in the book in the written text If it's talked about not being in the written text then that's what you can take or Leave and I bring this up because I know that things that I struggle with in a meeting sometime is the grizzled all-timer Who has certain opinions and some of them may challenge me and some of them not Or I hear some opinions that They don't make sense or they might be harmful to me and I'm just gonna leave that there I'm not gonna take those opinions tell me a little bit how that lands

Steve: 7:10

That's right I'm that lands great with me because I do think that as someone who is very opinionated and no really and puts my and puts my opinion out there in meetings and I am not to anything around meetings like I don't I don't typically put my opinions on outside stuff into my a meetings because that's not where they belong But I am very opinionated and all stuff I had one of my cousins you know say that because I'm certainly on my social media stuff on very opinionated on Current events and I my cousin years ago. We went out we were out at some family function She says man you have some opinions, huh? I'm like yeah, I do and I'm not and I'm not gonna hide behind him. I'm not gonna hide behind him So I do think that opinions are you know that be again? That's that's back to that Program before personalities, right? I'm not saying that right but You know, we have to leave those opinions and those personalities at the door We have to let people have you know, we have to understand that We're a mishmash of people Right and when we get into a recovery We're there there is a sole purpose to recover Right, and that sole purpose for me is the most important thing The most important thing for me is when I'm working my program when when I'm in that environment and even when I'm out of it Sometimes nowadays because I do try to apply these principles to all my fear

Matt: 8:52

Yep

Steve: 8:54

Is to focus on What's best for my sobriety because what I have learned the hard way and I mean it. I've learned the hard way through disaster is Actions and reactions of me during to events and circumstances around me That when I don't have my sobriety when I don't have my serenity my whole world crumbles Right my whole world crumbles I talk about it all the time. I've been sober. We talk about I've been sober 15 plus years. I haven't drank for better part of 29 out of the last 30 years. I haven't drank alcohol Every once in a while I still happens to me and I'm open with it. I'm open with it with my wife I want to pack up my car and drive to the mountains

Matt: 9:43

and

Steve: 9:43

and live in a cabin all by myself and I have a great life But every once in a while that thought still hits me that I just want to listen I just and I want to get away from it I won't

Matt: 9:56

right

Steve: 9:56

get away from whatever is uncomfortable whatever is causing me distress whatever is making me Pist off I just want to get away from it, but my program tells me that's not the way I handle it My program tells me I need to be able to handle those feelings. I need to be able to not react to them And that's why I have to always focus on that. So It's really really important for me to just understand what's what I need Yep And you know when I go into a meeting I need to but I need to hear from other people My meetings been my you know, I've been not feeling well. My whole meeting schedule has been messed up for the last like 10 days Right I missed my Friday night men's meeting twice tuna roll. I don't miss that tuna roll And here's the thing, like, I'm aware, even my wife said to me, my wife is aware these days, that that's not good for me. need to sort of be there and touch faith, so we talked a little bit on it, like I went out last night really quickly to, uh, speaker meeting up at the local club up here called

Matt: 11:05

I

Steve: 11:06

Pathfinders, it's, you know, still not feeling great but it's a big space, I didn't feel like I would be dangering anybody, although I'm not sure, I'm not contagious anymore, uh, but I just felt like I needed that, I needed that touch to my program.

Matt: 11:20

Yep.

Steve: 11:21

Right, I just needed that touch to it. And luckily I go to a lot of meetings, so I walk in there and I know four or five people there,

Matt: 11:27

who

Steve: 11:28

I've known for years, so, um, it's always important to me, I've sort of lost my train of thought here, but to just focus on what's important to me, which is my sense.

Matt: 11:41

You may have lost your train of thought, but what you said was good. And there's a lot to unpack and it does tie into the topic, because what I heard there is when I'm challenged, I want to run up to the mountains, and I can identify with that. When I feel like there's that challenge, whatever that challenging thing is that rocks my world a bit that makes me want to have the equivalent of run up to the mountains, what I think that really is saying to me is where I think my life is together. It's an illusion. That's the moment that tells me everything I thought I had is an illusion, I have nothing, everything is awful. That's also not true. We don't learn when everything is comfortable, we learn when it's uncomfortable, so this is the difference between I'm going to ignore what's uncomfortable for me versus I'm going to ignore really isn't relevant, or I'm looking at that and saying, Yeah, I don't think that's either true or helpful, and that's a tough thing to filter out. But then how do we embrace the discomfort because in any any part of our life, that's where we learn is getting in that discomfort phase.

Steve: 13:02

No question about it. I talk about my meetings and I go to a Wednesday meeting, which is a mixed group, which has lots of really really good long term female sobriety, and I learned so much from these women, so I love it because of such a different perspective and it's just a different voice to me, right? It's just a different voice.It's not the old boy locker room stuff. And there's a woman there who talks about exactly that sitting with that stuff that's uncomfortable. She talks about how she's had to learn, and you know, it's a woman with 30 something years, right? And she talks about how she has to learn to sit with that and figure that out. And she talks about how even after 30 plus years of sobriety and doing a program and all the stuff we do and how she has ponces, like she still has to work with that, she still has to work with all of those feelings. That was it for me like that was the game for me like I could not sit with my rope emotions right my emotions were either explosive or nonexistent. I had no ability ability to sit with something that was uncomfortable and painful and try to learn from it right so back of my drinking days when I got there, I drank to get rid of it. In my dry drunk days, I was explosive and angry and pissed off right? I mean that's like those sort of phases. And then in a sobriety stage where I've worked with the steps where I work a program, I can sit mostly and I can still get a little bit hot headed, but nothing like it's nothing like it was before. Like I can still be sharp with my tongue I guess like I can still say I can still say and consider things. But it's nothing like I've done before so I can look at those things and realize that there is a lesson in sitting with my discomfort and sitting with my pain. Listen, I share about my stuff right. I'm still caring for my wife this has been going on for a long time. I tell my wife all the time I'm tired honey. I'm just I'm tired emotionally

Matt: 15:28

yeah

Steve: 15:28

right I'm just tired of you know I don't want to I tell her I'm like I don't want to cook you know like I don't want to do any of this stuff anymore I've been doing it for so long like I would just love for one night I'm not like just to have somebody put a meal in front of me I mean it like that simple thing a nice healthy meal I thought about this last night because I was like what am I going to eat and like what do you mean nice to have a little protein, little vegetable, little you know just put in front of me tasty and that it was something that would have driven me nuts like that would have put me on a path to explosiveness. and now I can work through that thought I can talk about it I can talk about it here I talk about it my meetings

Matt: 16:14

Yep.

Steve: 16:15

so that I don't hit that explosive part right at the fuses that that point for me so that's all I can only do that because of this program that's it other people other people had those skills they learned those skills they were born with those skills I don't know where they got them from to me I found them in AA I found them in the fellowship right that's where I found them not in the program I really those skills I found in the fellowship by looking at other people by by watching other people by talking to other people right that's where I found those those things so that I could figure out how to deal with some of that stuff it's a excuse me it's a just a wonderful thing that I can do that today right

Matt: 17:05

it's

Steve: 17:05

me it early is it's a wonderful thing that I can do that and no I know my heart it's a hard even though there are days why I don't jump my car and go to the mountains I know my heart and I'm in even in my head that I love my life and I know that I would never do that because I love my kids you know I've always said my kids still live in the same state I do so my son has three kids like my daughter lives 20 minutes away I'm not leaving my kids I always told my wife like my kids are in college and she we talked about if we wanted to move when we retired and I'm like if my kids don't leave the state I'm not leaving the state playing a simple

Matt: 17:41

right

Steve: 17:42

I'm not going like you know warm nothing I'm staying with my kids that's what that's the most important thing so I know I'm not gonna do that it's more of a feeling and I

Matt: 17:52

oh

Steve: 17:52

know

Matt: 17:52

yeah

Steve: 17:52

I'm not I'm not gonna take action but it is interesting that you know I still get that feeling and I love the way you put it is that is it's this that you know I have this allusion that my life isn't as good as I think it is

Matt: 18:04

yes

Steve: 18:04

right and and I know I'm not alone this the other thing about this is that I hear this when I go to meetings from other people right I hear from you and this podcast and I hear it when I go to meetings that people feel the same way And I go okay I'm not that crazy you might be crazy but I'm not that crazy because other people are feeling the same way

Matt: 18:25

Now you're pretty normal and pretty average that's we all want to be the star of our own story and we're not and that is this is a real higher power moment for me is when I learned that it's okay to be average that you don't have to be strive to be the best what it means to me is not necessarily just be a slacker but just be good with who you are and who you are if that is not exceptional is also okay because you're here and that's a lot of take what you like and leave the rest

Steve: 19:05

yeah

Matt: 19:06

I could take it one way or I could take of I'm gonna make this my own and that is I'm gonna be comfortable with me because what caused me to drink is to strive to be exceptional so I felt normal as opposed to just feel normal wherever you are even if that is you're in a tough place and then don't compare to other people to me that that I'm losing my articulation here but it was it was an important lesson I learned a lot about how to function in life through going to meetings as well a lot of this was going through the cookbook of the steps and following that recipe but it was also connecting with other people and communicating with them asking for help or sometimes it's not I pick up the phone and say boy I'm really struggling with my sobriety it is you know what I'm kind of struggling with this thought process around my garbage disposal and I think something is loose in the electrical box there I don't know what could be on and off switch is would you get an electrician or is this something I can do myself and it's those things that I didn't have the thought process how do I work through that and talking to somebody helps me okay now I know how to navigate this or at least I'm pointed in the right direction I might get you know I don't believe in electricity all right so I'm gonna I'm gonna leave that right there on the table I don't know but I don't believe in the extreme example but I really thought about this idea of take what you like and leave the rest when I would take everything everybody said in a meeting literally of well I'm doing that or I don't feel like I'm doing that or I'm paranoid they're criticizing me without saying

Steve: 21:06

right

Matt: 21:07

and after a while there was some stuff I heard that I just I didn't like I didn't think it was productive it wasn't to me and I had a breakthrough of all right I'm gonna ignore that person I'm not gonna get worked up with them a lot of times this is that one person who is verbose and never shuts up or says the same thing over and over and over again I'm not gonna let that room my beating just going to ignore it we'll move on that's a lot of Where this topic works for me, not, I'm not going to work the steps.

Steve: 21:46

Yeah. Um, if you go to enough meetings, you, you know, you experienced that stuff. Anybody who's going to 12 step meetings, AA meetings, um, for the most part, if you go to enough of them, you're, you're, you're seeing that, that person that plays, and it varies, right? If you go to different meetings, I went to a club meeting last night. You see a lot of that stuff at club meetings, um, more than other places, like I have a Friday night meeting that does a wide variety of guys in there, right? All, um, economic, uh, different places, political places, um, religious places. I'm telling you something. All of that stuff at my Friday night meeting, which is a solid, you know, there's probably 30 to 35 guys who go to that meeting regularly. 20 to 25 of us show up every week, you know, give or take. And, uh, All of that stuff is left at the door, right? That meeting does a great job of, of leaving and not having that person. Typically, now, that doesn't mean that that person won't show up from somewhere else and, and spot off.

Matt: 22:54

Yes,

Steve: 22:56

but I think we've all, you know, that comes into this tolerance thing. W all learned this tolerance of being able to allow people to do what they need to do. One of the things, uh, that I have learned to do is that I've learned when somebody starts sharing and it starts irritating me because they're talking about whatever I start to think like maybe this person just needs to say that. Like maybe this person has no, nobody else to say it to. So let, let them say it here. It's a safe space. Let them say it here. And yeah, don't carry on. Yeah, we, we all know that. Again, certain people at certain meetings. It happens. You know, we all have that person right at the end of the meeting where they go, Hey, any, any, any burning desires and that person puts up their hand with three minutes to go and talks for seven minutes. Right? We, if you know, we have those people. So one of the things I wanted to talk about is like, I went to a meeting last night. Like I said, I haven't been to a speaker meeting last night and the speaker was an older gentleman, 83 years old. And he had, he had a great story. But he talked about one thing you said is that he grew up with a dominating father who, who expected excellence. And he said, I wasn't bad. I wasn't, he was, I, you know, I played sports. He goes, I was never good. I was average, you know. He goes at my academic stuff. I wasn't great. I was average. And he goes, well, my dad was always about, he like, if I brought home a B supposed to be a typical story, right? Dad was pushing him. And he felt horrible in life because he was average. And, and he had such a great story. Um, it really, I was really happy I went. Guy was from, uh, east Grambi and, uh, up in John's area. But I think about that. And like you said, we all want to be exceptional. You know, all of us, but a lot of us, like, that's it. And I always felt the same way that average wasn't good enough for me. And that caused me a lot of problems and caused me a lot of problems in relationships and stuff like that because as I tried to get above average, right? I discarded a lot of people along the way because I thought they were getting in my way. So average is good, right? We always say in, uh, in a, a, now, boring is good.

Matt: 25:35

Yes.

Steve: 25:36

You know, a boring life is good, you know, because means that I'm not doing risky stuff.

Matt: 25:44

Yeah. I just had an epiphany here around I got to be exceptional. I think this is comparing to other people. I think that thought came into my head because everybody else is exceptional at something. Maybe narrow, maybe why? But everybody's exceptional at something. I'm exceptional at nothing. There's something wrong with me. I can see it in meetings. Everybody else is exceptional at either everything in their program or something in particular. I'm exceptional. I'm exceptional and nothing. I'm doing this wrong.

Steve: 26:27

Yeah.

Matt: 26:28

That's the mindset. T is incorrect thinking because you may not be it's okay not to be exceptional at something or you're dismissing what you are exceptional at. You just don't see it or you don't value that. That's where I don't know reverse inventory. Maybe it is something that there's, there's a, the, we'll say step 14 because we all know what step 13 is step 14 is take an inventory of the things that you might be great at that you dismiss and tell it to another person.

Steve: 27:07

Yeah. That's, that's a point. You know, I think about how I view myself much like you view yourself. And I'm the same way, like I played sports, I wasn't even average at sports. I loved playing sports and doing stuff. I wasn't even average, so I was not, well that good. But I played and I did okay. Um, but I always think that I, not always. Part of me always thinks, there's a portion of me that always thinks I'm way worse than I am.

Matt: 27:47

Yeah.

Steve: 27:48

I need some feedback once in a while, and I do get it once in a while. I don't go searching for compliments. Like I don't go searching, like, hey, Steve, you're such a good guy. Um, matter of fact, I do the opposite in meetings. I tell them people say, oh, Steve, you're such a nice guy. I'm like, yeah, you spend an hour with me in the meeting, right? Oh, right? You see me once a week or twice a week for an hour and a half, and I'm a nice guy in that hour and a half. But once in a while, people will give me some feedback, like you're talking about, honest, really sincere feedback, then you can tell when it's honest and sincere. It's not asked for, um, and there's a few people who do that for me. And it's just nice to hear that. Like, yeah. Yeah. And being average is okay. And maybe I am exceptional, and I can't see it. Right. That's the

Matt: 28:45

Yep.

Steve: 28:45

other thing. Maybe I can't see that I'm exceptional in certain ways. Um, and I think that's probably fair for a lot of things because we're in the midst of it. We're in the grind. I'm in the grind of my own life.

Matt: 28:57

Yes.

Steve: 28:58

Right. I'm in the grind of my own life. So maybe I'm exceptional at something, but you know, then I said, then I've suddenly got to turn around and cook a meal that I don't feel like cooking. So that exceptional, you know, characteristic or whatever it is I might have gets lost. So, um, it's a struggle. But, you know, the other thing I would say is I don't search for that stuff. Today, I really do search for average. I search for boring. I don't search for exciting. I don't. I don't search for exciting. I don't have a lot of stuff that's been fun. Um, I have a few things that I still like to do that are fun for me. Um, but I don't need a lot of excitement. I don't need a lot of experiences like my, my whole thing today is like, I do think about relationships, especially with my family, my kids, my grandkids,

Matt: 29:57

mm-hmm.

Steve: 29:58

Um, and after that, everything else is like gravy, everything else is gravy. And, uh, so I don't know. It's, uh, it's always good to be back here. We, you know, we didn't take it last week. Like I said, it was the start of my cold. So it's great to be back here and, and

Matt: 30:19

No,

Steve: 30:19

dig.

Matt: 30:19

it was. stuff

Steve: 30:20

Some of

Matt: 30:20

is

Steve: 30:20

the

Matt: 30:21

good to take the week off because I could have put something up by myself. And I always think everybody's going to leave us if the episode is not there,

Steve: 30:31

Right.

Matt: 30:31

but I also thought I needed a mental break too.

Steve: 30:34

Yeah,

Matt: 30:34

you physically needed the break, because you said, well, we could tape at eight. And I was at the supermarket. And I'm like, I'm not going to put out a podcast to run to the microphone. Just to put something out there that this is the world saying it's not the worst thing in the world. If the podcast sits for a week. Cause very, very rarely take breaks.

Steve: 30:56

Yeah, we do.

Matt: 30:57

But sometimes it's like, I need that mental break of not plugging in or thinking of a topic or sitting for 30 minutes, which is hard of like, okay, what do I say next. Sometimes it's like, you know what? It's okay. And if the audience leaves, that's okay too.

Steve: 31:16

You said something that helped me in the text when we're texting back and forth, you said, remember, it's a hobby.

Matt: 31:23

Yeah,

Steve: 31:24

it's supposed to be fun, right?

Matt: 31:26

Mm hmm.

Steve: 31:26

It's, it's serious. It's a serious hobby for us. But it is. And once you said that, I'm like, yeah, that's right. Yeah, let's, let's skip it for the week.

Matt: 31:35

So there are people like Mitzi who contribute every single month and give a little bit of money because it's valuable to her that is amazing. It is, it is beyond amazing. But this is not pivot. This is not the Joe Rogan experience. And that we're costing advertisers. tens of millions of dollars for a week off. It's not how it works. And I had to say it outlawed for me to remember. I would love to hear from you. Take what you leave. Take what you like and leave the rest. What does it mean for you? How do you find us? SoberFriendsPod.com, Matt at SoberFriendsPod. Lots of thing about here, Steve.

Steve: 32:18

Yeah,

Matt: 32:19

He had heard.

Steve: 32:19

certainly has met.

Matt: 32:21

We'll see everybody next week. Bye, everybody.

Steve: 32:23

See you.