E273: A 13-Year-Old Knew He’d Been Drinking

A 13-year-old goes to Six Flags and comes back with a story—she could tell right away that another parent had been drinking. No one told her. She just knew.

That moment turns into a bigger conversation about what kids actually pick up on, how early they figure things out, and what it means when you think you’re hiding your drinking—but you’re not. Matt and Steve talk about being that parent, how relationships with kids quietly slip over time, and what changes when you’re finally present and sober.

• What kids notice (even when you think they don’t)
• Drinking to “feel normal” in everyday situations
• How connection with your kids slowly erodes
• Why sobriety changes more than just your drinking

Transcript

Matt: 0:02

Welcome to the Subber Friends podcast. Here for the newcomer, here for the old guy, here for anybody who has a desire to stop drinking. My name is Matt Jay, Steve is over there. What's going on Steve, I actually brought the mixer close and-

Steve: 0:19

A

Matt: 0:19

stretching.

Steve: 0:19

Not, not much Matt, how you doing today?

Matt: 0:22

I'm good. Uh, I'm gonna tell a little story about something my daughter told me today, and it just felt sorrow hearing this story. She went to six flags on Friday, and she went with some family friends. One of the girls that she went with, she is known all of her life. This little girl is like family. Uh, mom was there, mom has primary custody. Dad also went, uh, but dad is not primary, and mom was there because dad was there because he needs, he needs a, he needs an adult shaperone with his daughter. And this guy has both drug and alcohol problems, and he, he goes to six flags a lot, and I think he's one of these guys that part of his going to six flags is getting drunk. And my daughter said he reaped. So, a 13 year old new- who doesn't smell alcohol at home,

Steve: 1:24

right?

Matt: 1:24

And is, she, I think she was maybe a year or so, may not even two years old when I stopped, so she doesn't really have a lot of memory of what alcohol's like in the house, but she could smell that he smelled like booze, and she said he did bring a hard lemonade with him, and he must have put marijuana in a vape because she said he was also smoking at one point, so she smelled that. And I just, and this guy has had lots of legal issues and stuff. And I had nothing but sorrow for him. It was empathy and sorrow, not necessarily pity or condescension. And just, she was telling this, and I'm like, I thought through, I, I was telling her, I bet he has to drink just to feel normal. It's his medication. It's not even, she goes, she didn't even notice him acting drunk, but she could smell it. And it was that stage where I bet it is just, this is what I do when I go to functions like this, and I can't function without it. And that's, I just feel sad.

Steve: 2:48

Yeah, it is sad. I mean, we, we both abandoned it. Like I said, you're, you're young, my kids are young too. When I stop drinking for the first time, my kids never really, my son, that's not true. My son did, he has a little bit of a memory of me drinking, he was five when I quit, so he has a little,

Matt: 3:04

memory

Steve: 3:04

he has a of some of the behavior, not, not a lot, but some, my daughter had never. And it's sad. And you know, this is, this is a story we hear all the time. You just think about the situation is scribe, right? He needs, he needs a, adult chaperone supervision to be with his own child, right?

Matt: 3:27

Yes.

Steve: 3:29

You know, again, not the first time we've heard this story, right? I'm out of fact,

Matt: 3:34

Yeah.

Steve: 3:34

there's a guy, there's a guy going the Friday night who has been in another program, not a young guy has a special needs son and during his last stent out, lost custody of guardianship, I guess what is not custody guy, because of sons of adult, but he's across the needs, lost guardianship of his son. And now he can only have supervised visits with his son, right? This is not an, this is not a unique story in our program.

Matt: 4:05

lost, still sad,

Steve: 4:06

And that's because it, oh, absolutely, absolutely. That's all it doesn't feel bad for the guy I was in my family when, when they lived with me, right? I mean, I feel bad for that. And this is the point. I understand that. I mean, I've been able to come to terms with my own behavior and understand how horrible it was. and how much danger, you know, my first thought when you first started talking about the story, I'm like, did this guy drive these kids up there? Like was your daughter

Matt: 4:33

Oh,

Steve: 4:33

in the car? Right. It turns out right after you said his kids' moms were there. But that was my first thought. I was like, because that's the other conversation. And I'll relate a story that I had with my daughter who was older than your daughter. My daughter was early, not mid teen, so that some of her friends were driving. And my daughter was really, really good. I was very proud of her. And I'm sure my son was good too. I just didn't hear it as much. But she went out to the movies with some friends. And when they were leaving to go to the movies, she, well, when she got there, she got dropped off by her mom. And she was supposed to get her right home by one of her friends. And those friends smelled like alcohol. a daughter, and my daughter would not get in the car. It was one of my proudest moments of her. Uhm, and she called her mom and said, 'Mom, I need you to come pick me up, but I don't want to get in the car'. Bah, bah, bah. And I mean, it was one of my proudest moments. And I've always had difficult, I've always had those conversations with my kids was like, you know, these are the decisions that you have to make at some point when you turn that thing. '14, '15, maybe you get invited somewhere, you need to make those decisions'. So, there's another conversation maybe to be had with your daughter about not being afraid to go, you know, something, I need to call home, I need to get some help with this, right. This is uncomfortable for me. Uhm, but it's such a, it's such a devastating thing. I don't think there's any question that when I was at that point, I needed to drink the field normal. I needed to drink to cope. If I was going to go somewhere like that to six flags or be around, especially if there's some type of relationship going on with me and my wife or me and my ex or whatever it might be. Uhm, yeah, I might have to drink just to feel comfortable enough to exist in that situation. Uh, man, that's such a, such a horrible place to be. Uhm, I'm glad I don't have to be there anymore and I do have a lot of empathy for the people for him. and everybody has to be around. Like his kids too, right. His kids are living

Matt: 6:52

And yeah,

Steve: 6:52

with it all the time probably, right. Your daughter sought this one time and his kids lived with it probably every time they see him or many, many times at least, right.

Matt: 7:01

She telling me there is she didn't call it codependency, I could piece it together that they get along enough to communicate about their kid, but they would not choose to be around each other. And he has another child who did no longer, no longer wanted to be part of his life at about 12.

Steve: 7:35

Yeah, yeah.

Matt: 7:36

And that's where she is now.

Steve: 7:38

Okay.

Matt: 7:40

And I think she would, I think she would like that. And I think she has been a little pushy towards that. And I'm like, and there comes the codependency aspect of you have alcoholism in your life and you're trying to control if we do this or we do that. And it's like, that's, that's a real tough one to go down with your kid. But my daughter knew enough that this is not her experience. She also mentioned, you know, when she's around her father for a while, she's emotional, she doesn't get it a lot of sleep. It's after enough days with dad, I am, she is a different person and she is not care that she needs during that time. So my daughter at 13 configured this stuff out. And left unsaid, she doesn't have that experience at home, that she doesn't have to live through that. And she's, I can tell, there's gratitude there. And I'm, I feel blessed that she feels comfortable enough talking with me about it, because she talks to me about it as though I'm the subject matter expert as a dad, but also you can relate with what I'm going to tell you. This is what I experienced. She felt comfortable having just a very frank conversation.

Steve: 9:10

Yeah, I mean, that's, that's a, listen, again, you know, that's a blessing of our sobriety,

Matt: 9:16

but

Steve: 9:17

keep making ourselves available to have that kind of, just think about it, right? If you're drinking, you're not having that kind. First of all, you're drinking, she's not coming to you because you've got the same problem probably. But, you know, because we're not drinking, we were able to have that solution. And that's, this is the beauty. And first of all, you're right, 12 years old is that time. My kids were a little bit older, like about 13 between 13 and 14 is when I sat my kids down and I had to come to Jesus talk with them. I did, because that's what I, when I started getting involved with drugs and alcohol, right? That's, you know, 13, 14, 15. And, and that's why I just had that discussion like, hey, guys, you know, you're going to be out there. You're going to be doing this. You really have to pay attention. And, you know, I gave them the whole talk, like you have to make the best choices you can in life. And nobody is there with you at that point. I'm not there. Mom's not there. You know, nobody else is there. So you're going to have to make those choices all on your own. And, and I also told them both at that time. And no matter what the situation is, if you call me, I'll come and get you no matter what the situation is, right? I'm already sold. And so that is the, that's the, that's the age, right? That 12, 13, 14. And, It is the age, cognitive memory, right? I mean, I was, you know, I was a Uh, my kids lived with, uh, I had, um, we didn't have shared custody, but I had time with my kids, um, and they lived with their mom and there was a time where as they got older their friends was mostly mostly over with their moms, right. That's she, you know, we lived in different towns. They went to school with friends. Other activities were there. not here. And they never, even though they came, we'd moved to this neighborhood and my kids were young, they never really made any friends in this neighborhood, right.

Matt: 11:10

Uh,

Steve: 11:11

So they got to the point. I remember around 13, 14. My kids wanted to come here less. And I, I forced them to come up until they were about 16. My daughter was probably a little bit lighter. I think my, my son with maybe 17, I was still making him come over, not all the time. And then I think when my daughter got to be like 15, 16, like, it just, and it wasn't like they didn't want to come here and see me. Like they're with that age with their friends and all that kind of stuff. So that is me on my point with that is that is a time where they might look at that and go, we don't want to do that anymore. Right. We don't want to do. We don't want to do this alcohol, you know, depending on, depending on how mom is and how she, she handles it, um, they're going to start saying, and this is the, this is one of the problems we have with alcohol. It's like we talk about the things we lose that we don't even know. And you start to lose that, that relationship with your children starts to slip away because you're drinking and you may not notice it, like you think.

Matt: 12:18

Yes,

Steve: 12:19

you may not notice that it's slipping away, but we know, I in hindsight, we in hindsight, we can look

Matt: 12:25

it.

Steve: 12:25

at Oh, yeah, look at that. And the point was like, I didn't care. Just like I didn't care as much. You know, and even when I did care, when I was in the, in the thick of my alcoholism, I couldn't do anything about it. I mean that honestly, at the point, I think there was nothing I could do. So it's unfortunate that this, this, this man is struggling with that same thing

Matt: 12:50

and,

Steve: 12:51

like I said, I haven't been there, haven't been there and done that with my children. Man, it's, it is so hard. It is so difficult.

Matt: 12:59

This is what really makes this such an insidious disease, because it's easy not to understand that things are slipping away from you, like family. And you, you always see your kids as younger than they actually are. And then they have enough self-awareness that they can start making decisions that they don't want to do as much stuff with you. And you don't understand you can't connect those because you're in denial. And then it's everybody else's fault and it's why is the world set up against me. And if you can't break out of that thinking, that pulls its grips into you even further and it becomes a vicious cycle. It's, it's just, it's so incredibly sad. He has made terrible life choices and they just compound on each other and he hasn't learned how to tap out. I'm not confident he ever will. I don't know what, what is going to shake him with what he has lost to this.

Steve: 14:04

Do you, do you know this guy personally or no, you're just,

Matt: 14:07

you do. Or do. No, I know.

Steve: 14:09

Yeah, so. Yeah, I mean, who knows. You know, if he's ever going to get out from it, I mean lots of lots of guys. There's lots of guys I sit with in rooms who I've seen them come and go and never thought they'd really make it right? That's what the other thing we talked about. You don't try to predict who's going to make it and who's not going to make it because you just don't know.

Matt: 14:32

I'm a very bad judge who's going to make it and who. Yeah. There is a guy that I thought heard him share and thought this guy has finally, it is finally clicked and he died of an overdose that night.

Steve: 14:47

Yeah. Yeah.

Matt: 14:48

I don't know. I give up on predicting.

Steve: 14:53

Yeah. I mean, that's sort of why I don't, I trust me. I don't, I don't try to predict that all anymore because. Yeah. Listen. I have always realized I can barely, I can barely manage my own stuff. I mean that honestly, but my own, my own disease requires a lot of attention for me. And and, you know, some of that attention is certainly helping others. But yeah, it's not predicting. First of all, if you start predicting, then you don't give people the attention they deserve, right? Yeah, that's what I mean that honestly. I like it. So if you start thinking, oh, this guy got to make it, no, he's not going to make it. I'm not, I shouldn't even waste any time with them, right? That's, that's the problem with making that, um, making that type of statement. So, I don't know, hopefully, if you know, um, if he knows you're in the rooms. If there's some conversation that happens that maybe maybe one day he approaches you. And you have a conversation. Who knows? I mean, that's

Matt: 15:50

bit. You

Steve: 15:50

just a

Matt: 15:50

would be wonderful.

Steve: 15:51

Yeah. Right. I know.

Matt: 15:56

There have been a lot of offer ambson. Damn, at a certain point. uh, I wish she'd taken one of these off ramps, but she didn't.

Steve: 16:06

Yeah.

Matt: 16:07

I think what newcomers don't know is a lot of people think everybody else was drinking for fun and that they were the only broken one. But that's not the case. We were all broken ones. That's what we have in common. If you were just drinking for fun, you never would have found yourself in a 12-step meeting. Because there wouldn't have been the consequences. And therefore there wouldn't have been a reason to stop.

Steve: 16:40

Right.

Matt: 16:40

You get to a certain point where the consequences out whatever the consequences are for you or whatever the pain is for you, that pain outweighed the pain of stopping. And that's the tipping point. And that's not a weakness. This is a lot of reframe of a lot of us were just medicating to reach zero. It was part of our medication of whatever that looked like to feel normal to get through social situations, whatever it is, there's some people who needed to drink just to get through whatever that situation was. Definitely was the case for me. It helped with social anxiety that I get through those situations. And what you do need to know is there are tools that you can build that are a healthier way to get through those situations. And you don't even realize, I didn't want to stop because I didn't know how I would get through those situations without booze. And I realize now I'm able to get through them better because I've replaced booze with something else and that floors my mind.

Steve: 17:56

Yeah, yeah. Some of these sayings that we have in the rooms, the kind of, you know, some people think they're quirky and dopey. I did too for a while. You know, we have we have options today that we didn't have. And, you know, and just just knowing that just knowing that we have these other options is huge, you know, when you're talking earlier, you said that, you know, we think everybody was drinking for fun and we're drinking and we're the only one with the problem. I think what happened to me is that I kept thinking it was fun long past when it was fun. Right. I kept lying to myself. And that's because interlocked with mostly really bad drinking, there was still some fun drinking. I was still on occasion able to go out and have a couple beers and have some social fun before I went home and finished a job. So there was still a lot of lying to myself. So I think one of the things we always talk about when we come into these rooms is that one of the things that keep us out there that long is we we were lying to ourselves, how bad. Yeah. And that isn't till the end. And again, there was a point where I was no longer lying to myself, like I knew it was a problem. Right. And I like, I know, normal people, you know, for the longest time. I thought normal people. And I mean, dishonestly, drink like I drank because the people around would drink like I drank and and we all went to parties and we drank we got bus and we got silly and we got funny. We don't, you know, everybody had a bunch of liquor and they drove home and like, that's what everybody did. That was normal in my life. It became not normal like when I was like when I realized, oh, I'm doing this by myself and my basement, or I'm hiding it and I'm doing it on driving on the way home from work. I could have that buzz before I walk in the door, that's when it became not normal. But that was really at the end. I mean, I was like the last two, three years of my drinking. Like I realized it was not normal drinking. And like I said, I felt like I felt like there was nothing I could do about it. So, you know, today there is today. I go I go to these meetings and people there tell me and again one of the beauty thing the beauties of going to meetings is is I get to hear all the people struggles right. I went to my Wednesday noon meeting last week and there was you know, so many so many was there picking up a 30 day chip. I went to my Friday, a 24 hour chip

Matt: 21:08

I mean.

Steve: 21:09

I went to a Friday, we could have many had a few days, right? Doesn't mean he had 24 hours, but I mean they had something he had less than a

Matt: 21:15

it's

Steve: 21:15

month, but

Matt: 21:15

sure.

Steve: 21:16

And then I went to the Friday night, same thing. So many picked up and so many picked up a month coin at the Friday night meeting. That to me is like, man, I need to see that. I need to see that journey. I need to see that new people are coming in and need to remind me, yeah, I was here at one point, because I remember talking to the guy picked up a month coin. Oh, that was Wednesday guy picked up a month going to and I said, we all had a month at one point man, we all had it.

Matt: 21:46

Yeah.

Steve: 21:47

It's, it's a big deal to have a month is a big deal. Don't, don't think like, Oh, no, this is nothing, because we all had a month at one point. So, it's good stuff. I listen, I'm just, I'm grateful. I know you are too. Like, just to know that is like such a blessing to me, just to know if I say, Hey, I'm going to take the kids here. Nobody's worried. If they, or, you know, if they're going to have to be worried if I'm going to be trying to drink or smoke smoke weed or whatever, do anything. I don't have to be that person, that, you know, that, you know, the person that everybody that everybody's fearful. And I was that person. This is the whole point, I was that person, you know, although, my first wife never did it. Cause I think my first wife was, you know, like a lot of, like a lot of spouses. She was in denial. She, she, she didn't want to admit that she was married to an alcoholic.

Matt: 23:00

That's a tough one to admit.

Steve: 23:02

Yeah. Yeah. Especially her. I mean, I mean, it's like it was, you know. She, she didn't want to admit that. So she just denied it, and she ignored it. And I guess she thought that maybe she hoped that we'd get better on its own one day. And it typically doesn't work that way for most people.

Matt: 23:23

Not in my experience. No. It was a reason I couldn't figure this out, because I wasn't ever going to be able to figure it out. That's not what was possible. But it occurred to me as we're talking through this that drinking is ruined for me. Because if I did start drinking, my daughter now knows what it smells like. And that would be such a horrifying thing for her. That boy is that icky just even thinking about how painful that would be. Yeah, I think it's a lot easier for me, just not to drink than to do that. But I've got to continue to put in work, be diligent so that that doesn't happen.

Steve: 24:11

Yeah. Listen, I had that experience. My kids were older when I, when I read last my kids were no longer there were both my son was in college. But I do remember having that feeling and having happened to go tell them both. Hey, guess what? You know, just want to let you know that this happened. I'm going back to a, because I need to let them know that too. That's horrible. I never want to have to do that again. And today, you know, something I realized that I never do have to do. I mean, I

Matt: 24:45

And

Steve: 24:46

never do have to do that.

Matt: 24:48

Yeah.

Steve: 24:50

My friend Jim Kelly, who I use his last name because he uses last name and he always says that when he first came in, he's a matter of fact, he celebrated 44 years this guy.

Matt: 25:04

Standing.

Steve: 25:04

Yeah, incredible. He said, when he first came in, one of the more of the old time is told him, so this was 40 something years ago. He's like, you know something. You don't have to drink today if you don't want to. And you also don't have to drink today, even if you want to. And you think about that advice, right? And that's the truth, right? I never have to drink again, even if I want to, because I have options, I have tools, I have a network, I have everything I need not pick up that first drink. And until I got those things in my life, until I got them all, especially for me, especially the network. I mean, until I got those things I was always, I always found it impossible not to pick up that drink. And then when I lost those things that first time into the program, eventually I found it impossible not to pick up the first drink again. And I said, hey, I know better. And I know that listen, I don't ever want to be that person. I don't ever want to do that again. And just like you said, I need to put in work. I need to do my work, I need to go to meetings, I need to whatever that is for me, need to talk to other alcoholics, do my service work. I need to do that work to protect myself against becoming that person again because the other thing Jim says is that the person I am today will drink. So tomorrow, I have to be a different person. And his point is he's always got to be working on some. He's always got to be working to get better because staying at one place, his point is, by stay where I am today, eventually, I'll drink. And I believe all that stuff today, I do, I believe it all. And to me, it's a small price to pay. It's a small price to pay to do the work I need to do in order to have the life I have.

Matt: 27:21

It occurred to me that it's worth telling the new person that when we talk about doing the daily work, that does not mean we are holding on tight to prevent us from drinking today and you're going to feel that way the rest of your life, that's not how it is. What it means is you've got to find ways to continue to be uncomfortable so that you continue to grow. I have developed a new mentoring relationship with somebody. I have kind of learned at work not to just have one mentor, but to build these relationships with multiple people to get different perspectives and to find ways to be uncomfortable. Every time I talk to this person, I tell them I was really uncomfortable talking to you today. But it's not it's not like you made me feel uncomfortable. It's a I'm uncomfortable because there's growth and there's things I need to address that you're making me think, and I'm going to be vulnerable and answer the questions, and I'm going to extend trust. And that's uncomfortable, but it's something I can take away and say, here's something I can tackle that's going to make me better. Whatever that looks like, whatever my values are aligned to. And if you brand new and you're hearing us talk about doing that daily work, that's the type of thing to keep in mind, that it is not the same type of work you do in your first 30 days. When you're 30 years sober, you're doing a different type of work, but try and find ways to continue to be push your comfort levels so that you're still rowing. That's the way you're going to continue to stay sober. As you stagnate, not somebody who is as worried about that first drink as I am, my emotional sub right and how I

Steve: 29:14

I'm

Matt: 29:14

feel. And to be comfortable, I say comfortable, to be able to manage any situation without alcohol and without it making me miserable. Being able to do that effectively, that's good sobriety for me. So that's the goal for me. Because eventually if I go through that barrier and I'm miserable long enough, there are certain levels I can dip through where eventually drinking becomes a solution. And I'd like to think a few layers above that. Who really ever knows, but for me, that's what the goal is today is, I just want to not be miserable. And I want to have the tools to be able to handle everything and also handle it like when life is lousy or going through tough stuff, you can still get through it. And when Steve is talking about having a crew and having a network, that is very important. Let people lift you up because it also helps them to help.

Steve: 30:26

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, you know, it's the key. It's the key to my process. I think it's the key to a lot of people. Again, we've talked about other type of recovery and things have been seeing as is having a support group, whatever you want to call it, a support group, whether it's AA, whether it's other stuff, but having a support group that you're sort of accountable to is key in recovery. And they're talking about how, and again, maybe in the future, we talk about some of the stuff, how maybe recovering the future looks different than maybe we look at it today. Maybe it's like AA plus different medications, right, that I help you not drink as they get better medication to help you not drink and use drugs and then have AA as your support group, and maybe some other stuff. That, that's support group, like, you know, the other thing I heard on my friend and I meeting two or three weeks ago was like somebody came in and they said, I was told I never have to be alone again, right?

Matt: 31:32

Yeah.

Steve: 31:33

And when I talk about my drinking, I talk about drinking alone in my basement. And that's the whole point. I never have to be alone again. I never have to carry that burden myself. And that's the whole point is when I feel like that's it. And I don't, I don't get the thought that that's a solution for me anymore, but if I start to get that icky feeling that emotional sobriety talked about, and I start to start to lose that stuff. And I know that I don't have to be alone with that feeling. And I can talk to my wife and I have to talk to other people, but I'm going to tell you nobody understands it better than another alcoholic for me.

Matt: 32:10

Absolutely.

Steve: 32:10

Because, because they may be able to help me with that both feeling icky, but they, they don't understand the connection to that to my drinking, right? Like, my, I could talk to my wife about it. She won't understand the connection of me, struggling emotionally, and then that connection to the alcohol because she doesn't have that. But alcoholic will identify with that in a second. And, and that's what I need sometimes.

Matt: 32:37

Well, I hope this is the type of thing that you needed and that we are helping enhance your sobriety. And if you knew, hopefully we're hoping you take that first step towards a better way of life. However, you interact with this program. I'd love to hear from you, Matt. It's over friends. Odd. Steve? It's sometime

Steve: 32:58

soon. Alright Matt, we'll see ya.

Matt: 32:59

We'll see everybody next week. Bye everybody.

Steve: 33:01

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