Most of My Anxiety Lived in the Future

Most of us spend a lot of time worrying about things that haven't happened yet. We replay conversations, predict outcomes, and try to solve problems that may never arrive. In recovery, that kind of future-tripping can feel overwhelming because alcohol is no longer there to quiet the noise.

In this episode, Matt and Steve talk about the connection between anxiety and control. They explore why the need to know how everything will turn out often creates more stress, not less, and how focusing on what's directly in front of us can bring some relief. Whether you're newly sober or have years of recovery behind you, this conversation is a reminder that most of life's problems can only be handled one step at a time.

Topics include:
• Future-tripping and anxiety
• The illusion of control
• Why uncertainty feels so uncomfortable
• Recovery beyond alcohol
• Staying present when your mind wants to race ahead

Transcript

Matt Open: 0:01

When you're overwhelmed, just get out a pen and paper. What am I worried about? What's the outcome I'm trying to control? And what can I do, not today, not later on today, not next week, just in the next 15 minutes, what can I do and just do that? Most of the anxiety lives in questions three months from now. Most solutions live in the next 15 minutes.

Matt: 0:28

Most of us know the phrase, do the next right thing, but what does it actually mean? Many people here do the next right thing and dismiss it as a slogan yet. It may be one of the most practical tools and recovery, and that's what Stephen and I are gonna talk about next. Welcome to the SoberFriends podcast. You're in the right place if you are looking to get sober, put down that first drink, all of those things. My name is Matt J. Steve is here. What's going on, Steve?

Steve: 0:59

Good morning, Matt. Not much beautiful morning out here in Connecticut.

Matt: 1:03

Oh yeah, about time.

Steve: 1:05

I was just out in the garden, clipping some stuff. And alarm went off like time to head in and do a little recovery podcast.

Matt: 1:13

Good Lord, you're better than me. I did enough to prepare and eat breakfast, but going outside is not something.

Steve: 1:21

I

Matt: 1:21

was ready to do, or had the energy for you,

Steve: 1:24

Walk the dog came back, played in the garden here I am. I'm an early riser, I like being up early. Especially

Matt: 1:30

yeah.

Steve: 1:30

in the summer when you get these warms. It's gonna be very humid today. Not so hot but very humid. So try to get out there early so I can get some things done.

Matt: 1:38

Yeah, I think that goes into our topic. Do the next right thing. You had your list and you started. So it didn't get to a place of being overwhelmed, not so much for me. So why does this matter? It is easy in early recovery to get overwhelmed. One of the things that I learned is that you don't have to get overwhelmed with stopping drinking for the rest of your life. That's where the phrase one day at a time comes from so that you don't have to worry about doing the next right thing for the next 20, 40, 50 years, which is such an overwhelming thing. It's about doing the next right thing just today. Just think about that next step. And I have found that so helpful in so many ways in my life. And I think that's the thing that makes this really helpful of when you're overwhelmed stopping right down the thing you're worried about, the outcome you're looking to control, the one action you can take just in the next 15 minutes and then just do that action. I'm gonna tell you this is not something I'm always great at. And I would say you're listening. And you're probably not great at this either, which is why we're here, we're not perfect. In many ways I learned a lot of this in Seven Habits for highly effective people, but it's recovery stuff. So you, Steve, have you been overwhelmed by a problem?

Steve: 3:13

about

Matt: 3:13

You couldn't do anything

Steve: 3:14

it. Yeah, there's no question about it. I mean, you know, one of the reasons, one of the things I needed to do when I came into AA, is obviously I needed to cease drinking. I needed to stop drinking.

Matt: 3:29

Yep.

Steve: 3:29

And then, you know, I saw something on social media the other day is that the 12 steps aren't made to stop you from drinkin. They're out there to give you a spiritual experience, a spiritual experience or a spiritual awakening. And then if you get that, then the obsession to stop drinking will just, will go away. And that made a lot of sense to me. So because when I came in, I talked about this, on this podcast, I talked about it at my meetings, is when I came in the first time in '95, I came in because I drank too much and I stopped drinking and I thought, okay, that worked, I feel good. Bava bava. And we know how that doesn't, for many of us, it doesn't work out. Didn't work out for me either. So when I came back, I had to realize like, there was other things I needed to work on. And one of the things I needed to realize is that, I often, and another one you hear in the runes, is that my first thought is always an alcoholic thought. And that is why I need to think about doing the next right thing because my first thought, and it's not that I'm a bad person or that I'm evil or anything like that, it's just not always, it hasn't always been the right thing to do, right? That's the truth. It always--

Matt: 4:49

I want you to tell me more about that. What do you mean by your first thought is an alcoholic thought?

Steve: 4:54

Well, I talk about-- Many times like something like the escape their escape theory that I

Matt: 5:01

Oh yeah.

Steve: 5:02

have right so when I went to shit starts hitting the fan You know typically in any relationship that I'm in is that I start thinking it's time to get out of this relationship and just move on and run like that's the first thought even today Haven't been married at 21 e. I don't know 24 years Yeah, I can still have that thought it's not as it's not as prevalent doesn't happen is off and all that kind of stuff But I can still have it like man. That's really what I want to do I just want to I talk about all the time I want to head to the mountains and I want to get me a cab and and I just want to you know So that that's the type of thing You know, and there were there are other things right in in my past again in my past There are other things and that would be hard to manipulate a situation to get what I want right so

Matt: 5:54

Right

Steve: 5:54

first I was in sales my whole life. I'm manipulated things all the time to get what I wanted in sales. I did Right and there's fine lines between you know We talked to our in our buddy John who also's in sales goes to the Monday night meeting We he and I talk about it all times like we know our job was convinced people to buy things That maybe they didn't want to buy or at least they didn't want to buy at the price. I was selling it like the people always wanted to buy what I had My thing was pretty much price negotiation. So I always had to Try to manipulate people right try to You know do like hey these things are in short supply. You know whatever it might be so, you know I always had that in my life right because I spent 30 years in sales and somewhat doing that kind of stuff and that Kiris over right? Kiris over to relationships the Kiris over to whether you know, if I'm trying to get something out of Relationship with my wife. I want something am I being manipulative? Am I being self-centered and you know when I look at a situation? Am I being self-centered? I'm the situation. Am I being selfish under situation? That's what I mean like that's the first thought if I want something like You know and today I really do today. I try to take other people's feelings thoughts considerations into consideration myself And it's an ongoing thing like some people do this naturally some of us in Recovery need a lot of help. I Needed a lot of help. I needed to be taught to do that. I needed not only to do it I could always do it But I needed to be taught to stop and pause right and then think about the situation and then make sure check my motives Make sure I'm down and then make a decision So I think that's what we what I talk about that first thought is that You know that that pause that we talk about in our program all the time taking that pause taking that breath and Thinking about the situation before moving forward That to me is was taught to me by mostly the men in AA and it's something I try to practice I do practice to the best of my ability every day, right? Some days it's better some days is worse, but I do try to practice So that's sort of the kind of thing. I don't know if that makes sense anywhere out there But you know for me it

Matt: 8:20

me

Steve: 8:20

was always an ongoing it was an ongoing struggle of You know it's always about me. What what's in it for me? Right. Let's what we hear about what was what's in it for me That was the big thing when I was right before I came to this room. What's in it for me? What's part of my deal and like I said, I can still do that today But it's you are in far between and and even when I do it It's I know I'm doing it and I'm doing it for a reason like there's some times I'm you know, I mean there's things I do like yeah, I there's something I want and so what's it? What's in it for me? Less Negotiate this Last thing I'll say about this is one of my favorite books that I mentioned it here before I So sad I gave that book away because I just I used to love to have it in my office Man, I'm so I have to dig it up. I but I'm sure I gave it away the book was called everything's Negotiable if you know how to play the game and it was exactly that It was like in this this author's point was like everything in that life is negotiable and I sort of Absolutely bought into that like everything in my life was negotiable, and then when I so when I had bad motives Then it wasn't fun, right? And it wasn't you know,

Matt: 9:34

mm-hmm So

Steve: 9:34

I was able I was liable to hurt people not physically, but emotionally hurt their feelings piss people off so So that's what I think about when I think about my alcoholic thinking

Matt: 9:47

with this seems

Steve: 9:48

the between

Matt: 9:48

to be Negotiable and manipulation Because if I look at that phrase from the book everything's negotiable if you know how to play the game That could go one of two ways. It could be negotiating through a hard situation so that whoever the parties are, come to a mutual

Steve: 10:11

[BLANK_AUDIO]

Matt: 10:11

win or I could use it for evil. I want, I'm real, we're talking about John. Man, he'd be a good person to have on, to have a conversation with here. Because I think the thing I thought about when you brought him in is I can tell he's a good salesperson, a hearing him talk, and I wonder how often is he trying to do a sales job on himself? That's what came to my mind of, like, when are you, the difference between working with other people or you're trying to sell and negotiate with yourself and sometimes that is a manipulation to justify something. Almost like this is the evil bifurcation of what we're talking about of how do I negotiate getting to that place of, hey, it's okay if I don't get everything I want or do everything I'm looking to do, because if I am too focused on that I'll get nothing done or it's how did my manipulate a situation get those things, but I am losing some of my integrity in doing it.

Steve: 11:26

Yeah, I mean, and that's the whole point, right. Again, some people do this on a regular basis. Some of us like John and again, John and I've had plenty of conversations about being in the sales business and, and it's always right and that's the whole point that integrity piece, right. And, and you're absolutely right and that's why I talk about how I love the book and maybe that's why I got rid of it is because there is a fine line between negotiating hard manipulation. Right. And any negotiation, any real sales, right. I mean, think about pressure, if you think about the reputation of used car salesman right or even new car salesman, right. That's slimy person going in, you know, I got to go talk to my manager like, you know, if you've ever bought a new car in the last 30 years, you know how that works, right. We've all been through it. There's manipulation there. So there it's a fine line. It's a fine line between it. Now, when you're doing it for business and you're trying to put food on your table. It's one thing. I will tell you this when I first started in sales, what years and years and years ago, one of the things I did is I did in house sales for security systems, right. And so we did those are like tough sales. Right. Think about door to door salesman. They were door to door people called up. I had appointments when I went to these rooms, but I would go in those were real sales. Like those were tough closing sales. Those you're really trying to get. I was selling alarm systems back then that a full system at full price probably cost you three to four thousand dollars. And and then you know my and my best and obviously I got paid the most when I sold that full price, right. And I could discount. And then I let made less and less money, depending on how much I discount. And that was a lot of manipulation. That was a lot of talking right. You talk about the fair thing, all that kind of stuff. But one thing I always prided myself prided myself in, if I walked into a house, and I knew that person wasn't capable of really making that decision, they were older. Or if they weren't capable of using that system like I could put it in, but they weren't capable of using it because I just knew they didn't have it. I would not sell that person. I would not sell that person. I had some integrity there. And I had a couple sales where they went bad and people were unhappy. I sold that a factor. I sold a woman up in stores. Her husband had the chemistry building named after him. He had passed. He was a professor there. She can afford this thing. And she could not figure out how to work it. Now I did not get that sense when I was with her. there was a lot of feedback. And I was always isolated from that. Like, once I made the sale, the front office took care of everything else. Right. So if any bad feedback came back, they handled that. They went through.

Matt: 14:26

And

Steve: 14:27

They sent up textiles like that. But I felt bad. I felt bad. And I can remember, again, this is not. This is not padding myself on the back. And this is long before I found the rooms. I went into a house once and this woman told me this sad sad story about her. Granddaughter growing up. So her daughter was raising this child. No food in the house. But I got on the phone and called DCS. Right. and,

Matt: 14:59

and, uh-huh.

Steve: 15:00

And put this woman on the phone and like here here's what like again, I stopped selling this woman and felt oh, there's something bigger going on right so I've had the ability to do that now that was long before again I will say that that was long before I was in my 20s before I cross this really this imaginary line whatever was and became a full blown alcoholic where I really like that thing switched when I became that when I could no longer do anything but drink things switched in my brain. And I'd be going to bat back down I'd be wanting to sell you anything for any price if I needed to get money to buy my drug or choice which was alcohol at

Matt: 15:42

the time.

Steve: 15:42

I did a lot of manipulation at the end of my drinking with not good intentions. So, you know, so I always try to do it today, listen, the reason why I go to meetings, the reason why I show up, the reason why I go to Monday, my Wednesday, my Friday, and then do other stuff is because I need to be reminded of these things, I need to be reminded of this topic, I needed to be reminded of the topic of Friday night meeting of more or less life on life terms, you know, that's a regular topic in AI comes up a lot in discussions. You know, you can get bored of those topics. But the nice thing about that is you're always here shares on those things that you go, oh, I didn't hear that before, right? Nobody's,

Matt: 16:28

Yup.

Steve: 16:29

it's always different. So, I go to those things so I could hear other things going on in other people's lives and I could see how they deal with them. And that gives me an idea of how I might deal with them. So, listen, there are people out there today that I respect and they say it all time, I don't make any major decision without calling somebody up and running it by another alcoholic. Just, just so I can get a clearance, right? Like, hey, I'm thinking of changing jobs or whatever, like for your young enough, you still work. I'm thinking up, really, right, thinking of changing

Matt: 17:05

Yeah.

Steve: 17:05

jobs and you know, I don't like where I'm working. Think about it, go through it, sit down with somebody and work through the pros and cons. I never had those kind of conversations before in the past, I never had that support group that I could do that type of stuff. That is why I go to alcoholic anonymous meetings because they help me try to do the next right thing.

Matt: 17:30

Right. That's a great best practice. If you don't do that, make sure you have a good group of people that you connect with in sobriety. And if you are going to make major decisions, absolutely go and run it by people because others have gone through what you have gone through and they can help you do a little self discovery, maybe come back and ask you some questions. Why are you looking to change jobs? What is it about this job that excites you? What made you think about leaving the current job? And it might uncover a few things of either, boy, you're making an emotional decision that's wrong or you know, you're underselling yourself

Steve: 18:12

and

Matt: 18:12

give you that confidence that you actually have done the next right thing. I think through That next right thing, being a challenge and causing me to freeze because I don't know if it's going to work. I don't know if it's going to succeed and I want to think about, I want to skip to the end to figure out. If it's actually going to be successful, otherwise, I don't know if I want to do it. If I could just know what the end result is going to be. Then it's fine. But

Steve: 18:44

right.

Matt: 18:44

if there's uncertainty, well, what the hell am I going to do and that causes me to do nothing. It's less, it ends up being less to me about making the next right decision. It ends up being making a decision

Steve: 18:57

Yeah.

Matt: 18:57

and making no decision is a decision and up itself. But that that piece of, I'm uncomfortable with this, or I don't know where I'm having to take a risk becomes a problem. In that anxiety, I ended up medicating over.

Steve: 19:14

I

Matt: 19:15

mean, it doesn't even have to be, I can't think. I could be something big. Remembering that I was kind of offered a job to apply 20 years ago and being freaked out that I don't know if I can do this job and in reality, I probably could have. But I'm glad I went through the process of not getting that job because I don't think it would have been right for me long term. But there is that that panic and anxiety and resistance to change and there's definitely a lot of ADHD stuff here. There's comorbidity with alcoholism drug addiction and ADHD. And I think a lot of those situations where that anxiety came up because I'm going through a decision tree and there's a risk. Those are the times I reach for the bottle. And when you go into recovery, the bottle as the solution goes away. So I've got to find another decision tree. to make the next right thing because I also don't want to get stagnant and just be stuck and say, well, I don't have a tool to get through that decision. So I'm just going to do nothing forever. That's not going to be helpful either and that could cause other problems in life. And then you may reach for the bottle because you may know decision and life around you changed. So,

Steve: 20:45

yeah, yeah, that decision, you know, parallelism, parallelizing yourself, being unable to make a decision is a term for it, is something I struggle with too. And you're absolutely right. There'd be so much anxiety over making that decision when I was in my cups as they say in the book, absolutely. I would drink, I would drink over it. But I thought of something real life, I know I've talked about here, a real life experience of doing the next right thing. Here's a perfect example in a devastating one in my own life, right. I talked about it when I came into the program in 95. And stop drinking, yeah, after a couple years, two, maybe almost three years, I don't even think simple say three years in the program, not doing any real work, but doing a lot of meetings, doing a lot of stuff, right, but just not doing any step work. Going out, you know, meeting my sponsors, doing baby studies, jewell and Charlie's, all that kind of stuff, but decided I needed to go home, be a husband, blah, blah, blah. So I did that. And literally a couple of years later, two years later, like my life was not, I wasn't happy and I've told the story before I wasn't happy. And I started, wondering why I wasn't happy and thought, okay, it must be my marriage. It must be that I'm married to the wrong woman. And I never, because I had removed myself from AA, I never spoke to that decision to anybody, and made that decision on my own to get a divorce from my wife. And it was an absolutely uprooting, devastating decision for my family at the time, for my kids, for my wife who had, my wife didn't never did anything wrong, supported me, through all of my stuff. And it was a very selfish self-centered decision that I never ran by anybody. It was not the next right thing to do. Right? Perfect example. It was not the next right thing to do. And I know today that had I been working this program had I been working closely with the sponsor and had I been going to this men's meeting, which I'm going to today, I would

Matt: 23:18

and

Steve: 23:18

have gotten feedback and people would have challenged my thinking on that decision. Doesn't mean I would have made it, wouldn't have made it, I don't know, right? I don't know what the future would have brought. All I'm saying is that I would have gotten feedback that would have been different than me sitting alone. Even though I went to therapy, I talked about it with therapists, all that kind of stuff. It would have been totally different. I don't know if it would have changed anything, right? I really don't. But I do know that I would have felt better because that was a big part of my four step, right? And that's exactly like that's a real world example of not having the next right thing and not having some support when you need to make a big decision.

Matt: 24:10

I got the thinking here when you started talking about marriage

Steve: 24:13

and

Matt: 24:14

how marriage is hard marriage is long. And I think if we're all honest, at some point, we get sick of our spouses. You really love the bowl of frosted flakes at first. That bowl of frosted flakes is like the greatest thing ever in you're committing to eating a bowl of frosted flakes for the rest of your life. And you get tired of it and there are ways you can trick your mind and saying,"This marriage is bad." And there are bad marriages, there are bad things that

Steve: 24:48

Right,

Matt: 24:49

happen.

Steve: 24:49

absolutely.

Matt: 24:49

And it sounds like to you hearing your story, it's just the simple boredom was the thing that busted, busted it up, which I think is a normal thing. And I think is a regular reason people leave marriages is just general boredom in comparing it to how do I feel now versus how did this relationship feel in the past. And you're going to lose that every single time because there's no way that you keep up that level of a dopamine hit. So, making those right decisions just in the moment of what am I feeling, and that's we're talking to somebody really can help. You made me think of a podcast they listened to this week. There's nothing to do with recovery. Rich Eisen just started a limited series called This Was Sports Center, where he is interviewing classic people involved with Sports Center. And it speaks to me because if you're like somebody who watched Sports Center in the 80s and 90s especially, to me that's the Golden Era. And his first episode was with Dan Patrick who if there's anybody who's Mr. Sports Center it's Dan Patrick. And he talks about his own, make the next right decision, which was to Vespn that he had a contract that was pretty, uh, pretty lucrative. But he had to, he got the pressure of you need to be home more. And I think he was trea- I don't know if you know Connecticut or whatever. I think he tapes it in Milford now.

Steve: 26:35

Yeah, he

Matt: 26:35

And

Steve: 26:35

does.

Matt: 26:35

I think he might live in the Milford area. So he was traveling from Milford

Steve: 26:40

to

Matt: 26:41

Bristol. If you don't know Connecticut. And you think about an armpit. That's where Bristol is in the middle of the state. And there's just, there's no direct way there from the shoreline. So it's a long, he was driving long hours to do this stuff and he's working not nine to five hours. And you're doing a lot to not be there with your family. And not to be around with the kids. And his wife said, you know, if you do this next deal, you're going, it's the difference between the kids are here now. And the kids won't be at home when the contract's up. So what do you want to do? And he made a very difficult decision to leave and go and do his own thing where you went from working in Bristol to at start. The people who helped him with his show early on had to come in the backdoor of his house up the stairs and into the attic to tape the show. That's where he started taping his show in his attic. Not much different than what we're doing now, tape the attic and get that show off the ground. And it was a tremendous risk, but it allowed him to be there for his wife and there for his family in that time of life that was really, really important. He's very successful with this thing now. He's not as attic anymore. He's got a state of the art studio and video, but there was no guarantee it that that it was going to work out for him. And although that's not recovery in and of itself, it kind of is that you have to think through and sometimes do the next right thing is very risky or could feel risky. And you want to work away from that decision, because if I go with the safe decision, I kind of know how it might play out. If I go for the risky thing that I think is actually better for me and better for the family and better for my situation, damn, that could go sideways. And then what happens? And then do I pick up a drink? And sometimes it's the risky decision, that is the right one. That could come down to the next right decision is I'm going to stop drinking. Well, shit, what if I do that? And I have no way of getting through situations now. You got to find a way through. So I'd love to make this actionable for you. When you're overwhelmed, just get out of pen and paper. What am I worried about? What's the outcome I'm trying to control? And what can do? Not today, not not later on today, not next week, just in the next 15 minutes, what can I do? And just do that. Most of the anxiety lives in questions, three months from now. Most solutions live in the next 15 minutes. If anything, recovery has taught us you don't stay sober forever. You stay sober just today. And this is, if you were looking and saying, well, you didn't teach me how to drink responsibly, or how not to drink at all, we taught you emotional sobriety, emotional sobriety is trusting that I can handle the next step without knowing the entire path. And you don't have to solve your problem today or for your whole life. You don't have to solve your problem your whole life. You just need to figure out the next couple of minutes. All right, if you like this, tell somebody about it, click subscribe and rate and review on all the major podcast apps. Steve, thanks for doing this with me today.

Steve: 30:32

glad to be here, Matt.

Matt: 30:34

We'll see everybody next week.