I Was So Tired of Looking Okay — with Brooke Taylor

Brooke Taylor looked successful from the outside. But behind the polished image was alcohol, pressure, and the exhausting feeling that nothing ever felt like enough. In this conversation, she shares what it was like to get sober before she felt ready — and why early sobriety felt more like punishment than freedom.

They also talk about the exhausting work of keeping up appearances, what it took to finally stop, and why getting sober doesn’t always end the search for relief, approval, or feeling like enough.

Brooke is the author of Healing the Success Wound (Hachette, May 2026), which explores what happens when we tie our worth to what we accomplish instead of who we are.

Connect with Brooke:

Website: Brooke Taylor Coaching

Instagram: @brookevtaylor

TikTok: @brooketaylorcareercoach

LinkedIn: Brooke Taylor

Transcript

Brooke Taylor: 0:00

i think I cried every single day and I remember just saying my life's falling apart, it's falling apart, I'm not OK. And I had a really wise mentor tell me 'you're right, it is falling apart' and you're right it is not OK. According to your old definition of what is OK, and what is apart, and things had to fall apart, and my ego had to be stripped away in order for me to understand who I was meant to be. And sobriety just takes cool people and makes them even cooler, I think, but more importantly I was finally able to find the authenticity, and really genuinely, I mean, I've had some slip-ups, but since getting sober, I've never once written in my journal, I don't want to be this person, or I wish I was more authentic. I really genuinely do feel like my insides match my outsides now, which is such a gift.

Matt: 0:49

Welcome to The Sober Friends Podcast, my name is Matt Shay, and if you've ever wondered whether life can really get better without alcohol, while you're in the right place, whether you need a recovery, if you have some time sober, if you're supporting somebody, you love, and glad you're here. It's a podcast about sobriety, emotional growth, and learning how to navigate life without having to drink over it. Special guests here today. Talking with Brook Taylor, the author of Healing the Success World. Brook story caught my attention, because it's not just about success or ambition, it's about what happens when the outside looks polished, but you're inside, but inside using alcohol, achievement approval, and performance to quiet, the same never-ending feeling. Alcohol is a part of Brook's past, but we're going to talk about other things that she was doing to cover up. What was on the inside that she didn't want to show on the outside? It's funny how that works. Brook, thanks for coming on today.

Brooke Taylor: 1:54

Thanks for having me.

Matt: 1:55

Awesome. I'm glad to have you here. Before we get into the book or the framework, I wanted to start with the feeling. What did your life feel like before you got sober?

Brooke Taylor: 2:09

It felt incangruent. It felt like the person I presented myself to be, high-achieving, high-functioning, working at Google, doing what a lot of normal 20-somethings would be doing, working hard and playing hard. But on the inside, the consequences of that incangruence, and a lot of the behavior that I exhibited, felt like I was getting eroded from the inside. I felt like I had this empty cup feeling inside of me. No matter how much I achieved or did or what I did or the accolades or the good jobs, it never felt like enough. Almost like that cup would drain and demand to be filled again. I remember even writing in my journal during this work hard play, hard time, of working at Google, but also being like an alcoholic by night. I remember writing in my journal, I just want to be more authentic. I want the words that come out of my mouth to match who I aspire to be. I couldn't figure out how to make my words my actions and who I wanted to be match. That's a really painful place to be, so no wonder alcohol is a solution for that pain.

Matt: 3:20

It's interesting that you said, "Well, just like any normal 20-something year old I was working at Google." I think that most of the audience will look at that and say, "That's not even close to what I was doing in my 20s." On the surface there, saying, "You had a job at Google in your 20s that feels like you hit the jackpot, that's the 1%. Did it not feel that way?"

Brooke Taylor: 3:44

In some ways it felt like I had arrived, and it felt like I finally had the seal of approval that I always aspired to have. I grew up in the Bay Area, and my story is certainly one of privilege and education and opportunity. And yet, it was always this dichotomy of like, "Okay, I've made it, but I don't feel like I've made it on the inside." And I think what I meant by that comment is not just in terms of my profession, but also in terms of what a lot of young working professionals might look like, especially in Manhattan, which is where I lived at the time, taking the subway to work, wearing a certain outfit, walking, badging in, going to my desk, attending my meetings, and then going to happy hours and going to client events that were required and drinking, and maybe even some people were blacking out in their 20s. I had a lot of friends who were using alcohol to cope, and it might have, and my drinking even looked like a lot of people was drinking from the outside. But the way that it made me feel was completely different, the normalization, the questioning, the eroding self-esteem. I couldn't quite figure out how other people could make it work, but I couldn't. It felt like I was failing on so many different levels.

Matt: 5:08

What do you think people were seeing in you? You saw a certain vision of yourself at that time. What do you think? People were seeing? What was their reality?

Brooke Taylor: 5:18

Uhm, that's a good question. On the one hand, I had a group of friends who, when I told them what was going on with me and the reality of how I was feeling, they couldn't believe it. They had no idea. Even my parents had no idea. Uhm, they were like, but, but, you've seen that fine, you've seen happy, it's all good. And I think that that's the case for the person, you know, I'm a first born daughter. I,

Matt: 5:41

uhm,

Brooke Taylor: 5:42

have the grades again, having the job. It's safe to assume that people who have the outsides, it's like, that's the person I don't need to check on. That's the strong friend, that's the capable friend. But then I had other people who maybe knew me from growing up, for example. And they were like, why do you feel like, oh, I had a friend feel like, why do you feel like you're always performing? Why do you feel like you need eyes on you all the time in order to feel alive? And I was like, 'oof'. And I just kind of brushed it off as like, I don't know what they're talking about. So, it was kind of, again, it was like a tale of two worlds. Some people saw the Vernier and didn't ask anything else and other people saw the performance and questioned it, but I wasn't willing to look at it either.

Matt: 6:23

It's interesting you said that because as you're talking about getting in the right clothes, getting on the subway, going to the office, going to the parties. The first thing I could think of is she's playing a part. She's getting into her costume. She's acting on stage. But I could see the whole, doesn't feel real from me. I'm playing acting through this. At least, that's what's in your mind.

Brooke Taylor: 6:45

That's right, and I think that's what I was trying to get at in the journaling is that it was, again, it looks the same as everybody else, but why does it not feel right for me? Or it looks good, but why does it not feel right for me? And it was not just the exteriors. It wasn't just the playing of the role. It was the fact that I wouldn't allow. It was this empty cup feeling. This feeling like I could never measure up and the subsequent patterns that I was running in order to feed that disease of more. And the fact that the things that I would do in order to get people's attention or to feel like I, you know, to get eyes on me essentially, because I felt like without eyes on me, I would disappear.

Matt: 7:34

Gosh, that's that's some deep stuff. I can identify there. You've described being polished and driven by day and alcoholic at night. How hard was it to keep those two lives separate?

Brooke Taylor: 7:49

It was easy until it wasn't. I think because I want more than I wanted to drink, I wanted to achieve. I'm in any a gram three. And no wonder I wrote a book called Healing the Success Wound, right? And by achieve, I don't just mean, I don't just mean make a certain salary or have accolades. I mean that I had this desire that from a very young age of like, I've been given this gift of life. And I want to do with it the best thing that I could. It was a very esteemable idea. Like, sure, I was determined. But it's like, this is the, this is not the dress rehearsal. This is the real thing. Like I think I was born in an existential crisis. And that way. It's like, you only get one of these and I want it to be the best thing that I could be. And I think that's part part of why I got sober at 24 is because I could see so clearly, you know, only after a certain number of consequences. This isn't working in some way. And this is holding me back. And so, you know, again, maybe other people would have let this go on for another 10 years. But I guess maybe that's my true self for the divine part of me. That's just like, no, this isn't meant for you. Like, you could be doing other things. So it's not just compulsive or like, what

Matt: 9:10

like?

Brooke Taylor: 9:10

does it look I think there was also this, you know, desire to grow and blossom and learn and explore in a good way too.

Matt: 9:17

I think this goes to the whole point of when people have the fallacy that, well, if you just had more willpower, you could stop. I'm hearing the amazing amount of willpower that you had in your life of getting the job and not just I need to. I only have a short life. There's only so much I can do. So I got to get at it and just be a whirlwind through life. That is an incredible amount of willpower at a young age. And yet it's the alcohol thing that seems beyond your grasp.

Brooke Taylor: 9:52

Yeah, I mean, it's alcohol, you know, especially this concept of life is short. actually used to say that in college. Like, I was young during the yellow days, like Drake, you only live once

Matt: 10:08

I

Brooke Taylor: 10:08

and life is short. And that actually was the motto of my partying. But then when my dad was diagnosed with terminal cancer when I was 23,[BLANK_AUDIO] Turned it on its head and it was like, wow, really truly life is short and how can I be drinking away my life while my dad is fighting for his? And, you know, I'm just, I'm grateful for that moment, uhm, and I, I think that's what's so baffling about addiction or any area of your life that you really struggle with because there have been other areas of my life where I'm like, why can't my willpower fix this, whether it is addiction or maybe a difficult relationship with a parent or for me, I've like, struggled throughout my entrepreneurial life with like social media. I'm like, why does it seem to come so easily to other people and why can't I seem to like crack this code? We all have something whether it's like body or relationships are dating like no amount of willpower can really fix it. But those are always the areas where I can apply the 12 step principles and my recovery principles and be like, okay, I'm powerless over this thing. What other, what else can I bring in here? That's not just like my stubbornness or my drive and my determination and I'm so glad that I have the blueprint of that to apply to these other areas of my life and my business and my relationships.

Matt: 11:24

So you make me feel a little bit better because I went and looked at your social today a little bit and I'm like, wow, there's like 13,000 followers on TikTok. you. That's amazing.

Brooke Taylor: 11:34

Oh, thank

Matt: 11:34

And yet, and then you look at, you never think the person who's got 13,000 is looking at the person who has 130,000. Why can't I be like that

Brooke Taylor: 11:44

Right.

Matt: 11:44

person?

Brooke Taylor: 11:45

It's

Matt: 11:45

as opposed to like, where are you insanely great that people would look at and say, God, I wish I had that. So easy to turn and say, it's not enough or I could be better.

Brooke Taylor: 11:57

Yeah, it's not enough. And then the other thing, you know, just to that point around social media or success in general is that I think there's this, there's this notion that it should be effortless, right? In fact, there's research behind this. We tend to ascribe moral character traits to people who work harder for things. It's called effort moralization. So people who work for whom things are more challenging or difficult were like, wow, they must be a really great mother or a really great father. They must have high character. They'd be a good partner or something like that. And yet at the same time, we have this myth that things should be effortless. So I always thought that they're again, social media, it's like it comes naturally for people. They don't have to work at it. They don't think about it. They just post a video and then it goes mega viral or something like that. I have had to work at social media to get, and again, I have 8,000 followers on Instagram. And I've only just doubled since this book launch. So from 2019, no, excuse me, from 2016 until 2026, I've had 3,000 followers and I've had to work so hard for that. I just bring that up to say that like there are areas of people's life that are so challenging and it might look certain way from the outside, but I've really struggled with that stuff.

Matt: 13:16

I think you're also getting into the whole point of don't quit until the miracle happens, like 3,000, 3,000, I'm grinding at 3,000, 8,000.

Brooke Taylor: 13:25

Exactly. Yeah, it's been an interesting thing.

Matt: 13:27

Yeah, you won't be successful until you decide to give up.

Brooke Taylor: 13:32

Oh gosh, it's so true and I've given

Matt: 13:33

up. don't do that.

Brooke Taylor: 13:37

Yeah,

Matt: 13:37

Talk about your dad. You brought in your dad a little bit. The cancer diagnosis is what kind of spurred on the sobriety. What did your father's cancer diagnosis force you to face?

Brooke Taylor: 13:51

Yeah, and because you know, as I looked back on my drinking, it was always when my parents went through a divorce when I was in college and that's really when my drinking took a bit of a turn. And as you, I'm sure you can imagine it's painful when your parents are...

Matt: 14:05

Yeah.

Brooke Taylor: 14:06

divorce. And when you're still a child and you're living away from home and you know, my brother would call me crying and I felt very helpless. But I was also a first born. So I felt responsible for keeping the family together. And that's when my drinking would just go off a cliff. So three years later when my dad called me or when we he told us that he had terminal cancer. I was like, my first thought was, oh my gosh, what a living nightmare. This is the worst news I've ever received. And my second thought was like, oh, I'm screwed. My drinking's really going to take me down. The other thing that had happened is that I was sexually harassed by my direct manager when I was at

Matt: 14:44

No, no.

Brooke Taylor: 14:44

Google. And that happened three weeks prior to me getting this news about my dad. And that harassment was very confusing for me because I took, I accepted the drinks from my boss's boss. I was at the concert after work with all these colleagues. I, you know, I blacked out and woke up somewhere that I shouldn't have been. I don't remember what happened. So could that be sexual harassment? I don't know. I wasn't there. It was pretty me too. So there was a lot of gray area, a lot of confusion. But what I do know is that I was up for promotion. And I didn't want to anger embarrass or jeopardize that promotion because I needed it in order to feel okay. So I buried it. I kept going. I got the promotion. Then my dad got diagnosed. And then another thing that had happened. Another thing that had happened is that my work started kind of fraying apart at the seams. I started doing drugs before work, doing drugs before sales meetings. And I was just like, this is not me. So it wasn't a white light moment for me. It was a series of events that kind of culminated into a realization that I was like this has to end. So it was all those things.

Matt: 15:59

Yes, cascading down the hill. You had a lot. That's a lot going on at 23, 24 years old. And that I can just imagine what that that self doubt. And I'm sure there's lots of women listening to this now that unfortunately that's that is to regardless of whether you work in a target or you're working at a Google or a fortune 10 company.

Brooke Taylor: 16:24

Yeah.

Matt: 16:24

It is a reality for far too many people still today.

Brooke Taylor: 16:28

It's true and the confusion in the lack of language and where's the line and where am I complicit and all of that. And it took me a lot of work in my therapy my 12th, my 4th step to to be like, you know, I actually did take care of my side of the street in that dynamic, which was getting sober. That was my part, you know. And I know that that's a bit cache because it's like I was I a victim or was there a part and, you know, I found I think what's so great about 12 step is it's like my part was I drank too much. Okay, that's my part. And so I took care of that side of the street. And then later when me to happened in 2017 there was a walk out in tech. You might not have remembered this, but it was like,

Matt: 17:08

I do.

Brooke Taylor: 17:09

You do okay. Yeah. We all Googlers and I think other companies at like activation Blizzard and meta walked out at the same time. And I remember looking to my left and seeing that individual at the walk out. And I just walked right back into the office and reported it and I just said, hey, this is what happened. You can do this, you can do an investigation and do with this information what you want. I was actually quitting the company a few months later and so I knew that that was going to happen and I just want to share this because my report was taken seriously it was investigated. This person was terminated and you don't hear a lot of stories of people who report these things and for whom they're believed it's taken seriously and there was a good outcome. And mine was a great mine was a good outcome. So I just want to share that if we're going to normalize talking about sexual harassment in the workplace, I think we should also normalize talking about reporting it and the fact that it can go well sometimes too.

Matt: 18:02

Yeah, that's a incredible courage because regardless, you don't know

Brooke Taylor: 18:07

happen.

Matt: 18:07

what's going

Brooke Taylor: 18:07

You

Matt: 18:07

to

Brooke Taylor: 18:08

don't know. Yeah, you don't know. Yeah.

Matt: 18:12

What you afraid that sobriety might take away from you?

Brooke Taylor: 18:16

Oh gosh, my entire identity. my entire sense of self. This work hard, play hard, like growing up, I went to an all-woman school. I went to an all-girl school growing up from grade 11 to grade 18. And so, and I was also, again, an eldest. And so I often looked to like movies and television to tell to teach me what like a woman should be. So what did I grow? I grew up on the OC, Gilmore Girls, one tree hill. And during that time a lot of television was about like Paris Hilton, Lindsey Loham, like Hillary Deff. It was like partying was the cool thing to do. It was like having Rory Gilmore from Gilmore Girls brains, but then being able to party at the same time. That's changed a lot, but that was my ideal of like what a what a woman should be. And so then I went to college and I was like, okay, I'm going to be this, I'm going to concoct myself into being a work hard, play hard type. And I loved fact that people were like, wow, she works at Google, but she can also stay out till 3 a. m. Like, that was a fan. I really enjoyed that. And so I remember the first six months that I was sober. I think I cried every single day. And I remember just saying, my life's falling apart. It's falling apart. I'm not okay. And I had a really wise mentor tell me, you're right, it is falling apart. And you're right, it is not okay. According to your old definition of okay, and what is a part? And things had to fall apart, and my ego had to be stripped away in order for me to understand who I was meant to be. And sobriety just takes cool people and makes them even cooler, I think. But more importantly, I was finally able to find the authenticity. And really genuinely, I mean, I've had some slip-ups, but since getting sober, I've never once written in my journal, I don't want to be this person. Or I wish I was more authentic. I really genuinely do feel like my insights match my outsides now, which is such a gift.

Matt: 20:16

That's awesome. That comfortable with being who you are, not what you think the rest of the world has to be. So it's almost like you do have to more in that a little bit.

Brooke Taylor: 20:26

Yeah, I'd say so.

Matt: 20:28

Awesome. So when when you reached out, the phrase that stood out to me was chasing gold stars and pouring drinks to quiet the same insecurity. When did you realize those were connected?

Brooke Taylor: 20:44

Early in my sobriety, I would leave the, I was working in New York, and I would leave the halls of Google and I'd walk down the street to iconic meeting called Perry Street in New York. And I would sit there in this tiny little shabby room next to Bankers and next to homeless people. And we'd talk about the spiritual malady, the disease of the spirit, this disease of more. And I learned that that is the root of addiction. It's not the substance. It's the god-shaped whole, this yearning, this seeking, this desire to be made complete by something greater than myself. And that made a lot of sense to me, like on a spiritual level. And then I would go back, leave the rooms of recovery go back to my meeting, my business meetings, and I'd look around and I'd be like, all these people are addicts too. That's

Matt: 21:30

just...

Brooke Taylor: 21:31

Completely different. They're able to make it look good. But they had a spiritual malady. They have a disease of more too. It's just channeled towards achievement, significance, external validation. And so in that way, I've actually never met a CEO who isn't in addict in some way, who doesn't have that spiritual malady, maybe in droves. And so I think I only realized it once I got sober, that those two things were linked for myself, that that spiritual malady just became misplaced through achievement too. And I mean, I'm not the first person to say that I think once you get sober and you're able to align that hustle or that determination to drink, you're able to, you know, really, you see it over and over again, people doing great things with their lives and their careers, once that energy is channeled in the right place. And so that's really my desire in my coaching practice is to help people to realign their ambition. And I don't primarily work with alcoholics and addicts. I work with people who are addicted to work

Matt: 22:31

certain

Brooke Taylor: 22:31

in the and helping them to kind of like, realign that ambition to the power of their internal guidance system and their true self, so that they can have a greater sense of agency, autonomy and authenticity, and what it is that they do with their career.

Matt: 22:46

To me, addiction is really just the solution to another problem I have. It's it's also costly. It's not my problem, it's my solution. So ambition, trying to get up the ladder, trying to be seen as the expert or the greatest leader that's ever lived or the person who just broke down this work problem in a way, as nobody else could. To me, it's the same. We're changing the terminology there. But it's the same thing. It's you reaching for something else to close the whole. I kind of agree with you. I think after a certain level on the pay tier, I don't know how you don't lose some of your humanity or let the things important in life slide to get to that point. I always wanted to get to that point. Now I'm like, I don't think so. I'm going to have to lose too much of what's important to me.

Brooke Taylor: 23:40

Yeah, that's really interesting. And there's so much conversation right now around ambition. And you even see it. I mean, I'm mostly in kind of like female entrepreneur spaces, but I can tell you how many books. It's like the ambition penalty, the success myth, the ambition trap, you know, making it without losing it. These are all other, the success wound, fame sick. These are all books in my category that have come out even in just the last six months. I think we're all reckoning with this ambition and, you know, what to do with it. And I really, I do blame, I blame the culture more than I blame.

Matt: 24:16

Yeah.

Brooke Taylor: 24:17

Plus, you know, but I really do feel like it's it's our culture that co-ops this innate human spiritual seeking and hunger for something to be made complete, but it just gets co-opted, misdirected towards, okay, I'll be made complete through this business venture through this next promotion or 100,000 followers on Instagram.

Matt: 24:41

I'm always the guy at work that's kind of the turd and the punch ball a lot of times because on the one who will say, it's not that we have bad people. It's, this is telling me that this is a process problem. This is a culture problem. If you fix those incentives, the behavior is going to get there and you're kind of reinforcing that. It's not like there are a bunch of bad people who are falling along with a certain culture, the American way in some ways, to feel like if I do this, then I'll be happy. But there's always another thing to reach, reach it towards,

Brooke Taylor: 25:15

Yeah. And I hate to, I'm bringing it back to social media just because it's present for me. Again, it's,

Matt: 25:21

mm-hmm.

Brooke Taylor: 25:21

I would say it's, it's been addiction. My body and social media, which have been three areas of my life that have been just that no amount of willpower has been able to fix. Okay. So social media, it's like, I, I want the success there, but genuinely not because, not because of the status, but because I want to be somebody who doesn't give up on these things, who doesn't feel like, oh, who isn't believing the story of, like, other people can have that, but I can't, right? Like other people can get sober, but I can't. Or other people can feel comfortable in their body, but I can't. Like all of the, the ways that we say like that's not for me, I want to have that, I guess, you know, success. But, but I think the difference here is, it's like, it's not for the status, but for the satisfaction of like, I've overcome that, that limitation for myself. Does that make sense?

Matt: 26:16

It does. I think that's actually a great social media message. If you're weaving in the, hey, I have struggled with body image. I have struggled just on what success means to me. I have always wanted to have that follower count because I wanted to feel like I didn't give up. I bet you feel the same way too. We're in this together. Because that's something I think anybody can

Brooke Taylor: 26:38

relate to. So true. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, that makes sense. That's some good homework for me coming out of

Matt: 26:45

it. Yeah. No, it's good. It's good for you to, I'm hearing this and I know this is really female centered, but dammit, there's a lot here that I'm taking away from to. I'm like, oh yeah, this is a great reminder.

Brooke Taylor: 26:58

Let's

Matt: 26:59

define the success wound. What is that?

Brooke Taylor: 27:02

At its core the success wound is the pain that comes from mistaking, success, productivity, and achievement for self-worth. In addiction terms it's the spiritual malady as it shows up in work and career. It is our natural human yearning for, again, for descendants, for connection for, for God, for, for community that gets co-opted or co-errrs or convinces us that we can receive those, that we can be sad- our yearning can be satisfied through significance instead of a higher power. So, you know, as I started to recover in addiction I start my career got, I got promoted faster than I could have imagined. People started coming up to me and being like, you know, I think you should, I think you should raise your hand for this manager role, or I think you'd be great for this other, you know, I think you'd be great for this other role. And it was, it was to my great surprise because I wasn't focusing on work during that time. I was really focusing on my recovery and growing along spiritual lines. And so, that's really the beauty of healing your success wound as it relates to work is that as you start to heal your ways of working and your working patterns that show up as the result of this, you know, feeling of inadequacy at work, your whole sense of fulfillment in life starts to shift to. And, you know, that's why I do believe that the success wound is really the root of so many of the common career issues that we see today, burnout, perfectionism, imposter syndrome, procrastination, overworking, underworking, grinding, all of that is because of the habit of tying what we do to who we are. And so, just like in recovery, healing your success wound is, it's an identity shifting exercise of saying, I can be ambitious and what, want what I want, but I can also be whole worthy and enough at the same time. It's both and it's that duality and that both end that duality is is a spiritual idea too, right? It's like in the gray and the new lights and all of that. So, that's been my life's work over the last nine years or so.

Matt: 29:17

Feels like it's root cause analysis like what is the real root cause here,

Brooke Taylor: 29:21

Yes,

Matt: 29:22

opposed?

Brooke Taylor: 29:22

exactly.

Matt: 29:24

So what is the empty cup feeling?

Brooke Taylor: 29:27

Yeah, the empty feeling is that it is the spiritual. Mality. It's this God shaped hole. It's just how my client, you know, I start the book by saying, you know, I had this client named Sutton and she was one of my very first clients when I was living in New York and I was working at Google, and she we had just finished, you know, 52 hour, 52 minutes of our hour long conversation. She was like, I made manager by the time I was 27 then I became VP. I support my family back in Louisiana. I have a maxed out 401k, there are all these incredible things that I've done and should feel proud of. Why do I still feel like behind and life? Why do I still feel like it's not enough? Why do I still wonder at night? Like if I should be doing more. She's and she's like, it says, if I have this empty cup inside of me that should be filled with all of these accomplishments, but drains at once and demands to be filled again. And I just related to that feeling so much that feeling of an adequacy in this almost like success monster that demands to be fed every single day. And, you know, the beauty of that is that, you know, we only really have one career problem which is this empty cup feeling, this disconnection from self, from higher self, from God. And so actually we only really need one solution. We don't need five steps to give better feedback. We don't need, you know, another leadership development course. We just need to learn how to work from our wholeness rather than our wounding and the rest of it tends to fall into place.

Matt: 31:00

So this is one where I hear you and then I figure out, well, how do I make this real? How does someone know they're trying to earn worth instead of just simply pursuing something meaningful?

Brooke Taylor: 31:13

It's a great question. I think you have to look at the consequences and how it makes you feel, just like with drinking. Right? Like how do you know somebody's, you know, you know, you could have two people who are drinking the exact same amount, but it's the consequences and how how it makes them feel. So for example, you know, somebody, let me give you an example. I wrote this book between the hours of 5 am and 10 am while I was pregnant. I said no to friends, baby showers. I said no to dinners. I said no to weddings. I really focused on this book and growing my business, because both really mattered to me. A lot of people were like, where have you been? I'm worried about you. Are you? This seems unbalanced. Like, are you okay? And I said no. Like I feel lit up. I feel inspired. Do I have moments of self doubt? Yes, but I know what I'm working towards and why that matters to me. And so sure, I was tired, but I stopped when my body was absolutely exhausted. I gave myself off days. I paused to rest. I asked for help. I didn't do it all on my own. And I think that's the difference, because if I were to have written this book from my success wound, I would have still said yes to all the weddings, the baby showers, the dinners, because I didn't want people to feel disappointed in me and I would want to people, please. I wouldn't ask for help because I would be sucked into the belief of, oh my god, I have so much to do and it's all on me. This is on me. I need to do it. I'd be berating myself and not being able to sleep at night because it's like, I should be doing more. I should be doing more. You know, so it's maybe two outsides, but the internal experience is entirely different. And so you know when you're working from your success wound, when you're when you're creating the same suffering over and over again and you're not feeling a sense of progress in your career. You know you're working from your success wound, when you're, you know, riddled with anxiety, maybe even some depression. And you're constantly in a state of compare and despair. But you know you're working from your aligned ambition, when you're able to see possibility and potential and feel a sense of forward moving and momentum, when you're able to work in a way that's like sustainable and maybe sure you have some moments of self doubt and anxiety and performance anxiety, which is completely normal and necessary in some ways, but it doesn't hold you back in the ways that it used to. So again, two external realities, but the internal experience is completely different.

Matt: 33:31

I think oftentimes if I were to read something like your book and I'm hearing, you know, the anxiety comes back when the is reopened and I'm going to think, oh no, I'm doing this all wrong. How do you give any type of grace for backsliding and how have you dealt with that?

Brooke Taylor: 33:51

Totally. I mean, one of the questions that came up on my book tour was like, how did how was your success wound activated from, you know, from launching a book called Healing the Success Wind, which is launching a book is a very humbling experience, for sure. And it's very challenging. And it's a lot. I think I even end the chapter by saying, the goal is not perfection. The title of this book is not how to heal your success wound forever and ever. This is a process. And I think it's part of the human experience. Just like the spiritual malady is inevitability of the human experience, the point is, is that we grow along spiritual lines. And so the same thing here, the point is, is that I know how to come back to center when the success wound gets activated because we are human beings living in a culture that is literally hardwired to convince us that we are not enough. So that will buy more. So that will be susceptible

Matt: 34:42

Yep.

Brooke Taylor: 34:42

to certain marketing schemes. And so just being aware of that and knowing that when it does come up, I have tools to come back to center. And that's the whole point of the book is giving you tools to heal on the level of emotion, the level of thought and the level of behavior. And then at the end, we create an aligned ambition statement, which is, you know, in the same way that I'm powerless over alcohol. I am powerless over my determination. I have, I have, I no longer have the privilege of determining what's enough. in my career because left to my own devices. It's never going to be enough. So I have to ask a higher power to see my work clearly and to see my efforts clearly. And according to my higher power that I've discovered kind of through meditation and spiritual principles, it is enough when I am connecting and having fun. And so throughout this book launch process, it is enough when I'm connecting with people like you, I'm connecting with readers, when I'm taking in the messages of how this work has impacted people, not when I haven't look, I haven't asked for numbers. I have no idea how many books I've sold. I could have sold five. I could have sold five thousand. I have no idea and I will never ask because I will either get high on that. I'm the next coming up when I'm Burne Brown. I'm Jake rerolling of nonfiction and I'm in fantasy or I am the worst writer that's ever written word. I'm going to burn all my books and I'm never going to leave the house again. It's one of the other for me. That's how my alcoholic brain works.

Matt: 36:06

yep.

Brooke Taylor: 36:06

So I've no longer have the privilege of asking the outcome of my work. I don't know if you can relate to that at

Matt: 36:12

Totally.

Brooke Taylor: 36:12

all.

Matt: 36:13

I look at podcast numbers a lot of times and I'll see like That felt great recording that and I see that the number is not great and I'm like damn it I lost up my whole audience they hated it and then I feel like it's been awful And the number doesn't reflect it and then I just get the plan like Hopefully I'm connecting and I'm working my my hardest to connect and help somebody and make that the goal Because you get until those numbers sometimes it might drive the wrong behavior

Brooke Taylor: 36:40

that's right. That's right. That's right Right, and then you'll miss the point

Matt: 36:45

Yep,

Brooke Taylor: 36:45

you'll miss the point of the conversation You'll miss the point of doing this, you know to connect and to have to enjoy it hopefully for yourself too

Matt: 36:53

At the book names five unfulfilled achiever patterns grinder, please or hide or seek or And work hard play hard. I think I hit all of those so give us a quick version of the five types

Brooke Taylor: 37:06

Sure, so the grinder so these are the five ways that the success wound shows up in your career So you can diagnose your success wound by identifying with one of these five or all of these five because we all have these within us The grinder is the person who wants to have more do more be more they measure their value based on the volume of that they produce They get a high from checking something off their to-do list And they feel like they're a shark without a resting state. They have to stay in constant motion in order to survive Then we have the hider. This is the most common This is the person who might look successful from the outside but secretly harbors Different or bigger dreams for their career that they're not allowing themselves to have because oh other people can have that But I can't or it's not responsible or I should just be grateful for what I have what I have is enough. I'm not going to go after that other thing Then we have the pleaser. This is the person who's constantly wondering are they mad at me? Their definition of success is being liked and they are not okay unless everybody likes them If they see a period instead of an exclamation point, it sends them reeling for days. The wrong tone the wrong look They're like oh my god what's happening. Am I going to get fired? It's the it's the anxious attached Then we have the seeker we all have a friend like this somebody who calls us or a sponsor like this They're like I figured it out. It's this it's this job or it's this business idea or it's this career path This is my thing. It's nothing. That's finally going to rescue me from my misery This is the person who's constantly seeking their purpose or their thing or their place in the world But always has itchy feet and can never really kind of like commit to something. That's the seeker And then we have the work hard play hard. This is what I was when I was at Google These are people who you know live in the extremes and in this kind of pain pleasure see saw So they want to be excellent and how they work But they also want to be excellent in how they party or vacation or numb out They want to have it all do it all be it all And they often are like well. I've worked so hard this week. I deserve the glass of wine or the expensive vacation or You know the 40 hour scroll on social media or whatever it is, right? So These are the five ways that this that be success when shows up and how you can quickly kind of diagnose what your success when looks like

Matt: 39:24

I think about work hard play hard and I think I'm just exhausted with those people

Brooke Taylor: 39:28

Mm-hmm.

Matt: 39:29

I've done enough of that work. I can't go out and be with people So I think I'm probably celebrating with my 40 hour Doom scrolling

Brooke Taylor: 39:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we all have ways of kind of numbing out Yeah, and that's often the consequence of like well, I'm so exhausted. I've worked so hard And not really knowing how to like how to truly rest and recoup and recover

Matt: 39:52

Mm-hmm, right So what does self-trust look like now compared to early sobriety

Brooke Taylor: 39:58

Mm-hmm, that's a great question um That's one of the things that I talk almost with all of my clients about is learning how to trust your judgment when you're 51% sure I used to have to canvas for opinions. I used to have to have all the information. I used to have to do a Gantt chart You know analysis paralysis all

Matt: 40:19

yep

Brooke Taylor: 40:19

the things Now I know what my yes is because I have a clearer sense of my intuition and I know how to trust my judgment I think in some ways we all come in with that sense of knowing with ourselves But then we lose it and kind of have to reconnect with it I know now how to you know what a yes feels like in my body because it feels firm clear um It's almost it feels the same as like when somebody says something true to you and you're like yes um I know and know because I feel a little bit anxious I feel like a tightness in my throat or gripping in my chest If something doesn't feel quite right and so self-trust means um no longer being in that analysis paralysis or have to ask smarter more capable people for their opinion um I know how to take my time. I know how to say let me get back to you and I feel comfortable in the you know in the learning how and in the in the not knowing too

Matt: 41:12

You talked a little bit about body image earlier. How do you get to a point where, it's good enough and you're not racking yourself over your own body image?

Brooke Taylor: 41:26

Hmm. Before there was the addiction, there was the body image issues for me. So this has been like a lifelong thing, and I don't think I have the ultimate answer, but I have the answer that I'm satisfied with today. And I think the truth is, uhm, there's a feeling that I get in my body when I'm making good choices, uhm, and when I feel grounded, but also light, and when I feel, uhm, you know, maybe not like I'm obsessed or like love everything that I see back in the mirror, but I'm like, you know, that that's me. Like I can see myself reflected back. And so there have been times where I've been, you know, 20 pounds heavier than I am now or 20 pounds lighter, but where I am now genuinely is like, this feels like me. Uhm, and so, you know, I don't really feel like it's a number on the scale, but I think it's that feeling of grounded but lightness, and being like, this is how I'm supposed to look, you know, uhm, and again, that's a lifelong, it's a lifelong thing, uhm, yeah, it's a lifelong thing for me. I don't have all the answers, I wish I did.

Matt: 42:31

Yeah, that's okay. I don't think anybody has the answers, but you might have an answer that connects with somebody, feels a lot like acceptance. Like a lot of this stuff is, has a lot of accepting something, not accepting mediocrity, but it's just accepting what reality is and what good for me is.

Brooke Taylor: 42:51

That's right. That's right. I think that's right. That makes sense.

Matt: 42:58

How do you pursue success without using success is your proof that you're okay.

Brooke Taylor: 43:03

And

Matt: 43:05

how do you avoid that from creeping back?

Brooke Taylor: 43:10

Can I say by the book? Uhm,

Matt: 43:12

Yeah, of course.

Brooke Taylor: 43:15

okay.

Matt: 43:16

So don't be it. So the other thing is don't be afraid to be your own spokesperson and your own advocate. If you've got a book to sell, tell people to buy the book.

Brooke Taylor: 43:25

By the book, y'all, uhm, there's so much more in those 300 pages that those 300 pages could say that I could say right now, but the truth is, is that again, this, this success wound infects us at the level of emotion, the level of thought, right? So that art convinced, you know, it produces these thoughts like I'm not enough for it's all on me or I'm only as good as my last piece of feedback or I'll finally relax after the next vacation or once I push harder, then I'll deserve the break. Or, you know, other people get to have that, but I don't. Those are all success wound thoughts. And so we need, you know, we need tools in order to rearrange those thoughts, to identify when they show up and when they creep in and how to return to sanity in those moments. So, uhm, you know, and then we have the level of behavior, I'm a coach, not a therapist, not because I don't like therapy, I love therapy, but for me in my recovery as well, I find action to be a greater source of change for me than talking, than talking. Again, I love therapy, I love it, but I find that action is kind of the missing piece for a lot of people. Like we can talk about our problems all day long, but we really do need to get comfortable in like taking opposite action. So, you know, the grinder, for example, instead of trying to do it all, can they set three essential priorities and only go after those things. For the pleaser who wants to say yes all the time and who, you know, gets a sense of panic when they feel like they're in trouble, can they learn how to soothe themselves and be okay with other people's disappointment? Or can they learn how to say one aligned, no, the seeker and sort of shifting job to job to job, can they stay longer than they're comfortable with and learn how to contribute their zone of genius and their excellence? Because we can't help but like a job where we feel engaged, used and valued. But for the work hard play hard can they learn how to seek rest more than their genuine rest because as my husband has to keep reminding me, social media is not restful. TV isn't restful. Like, oh, I wish it was, but he's so right, it's not restful. A nap is restful, meditation is restful, connection is restful, and so knowing what those things that like genuinely recharge your battery are and going after those is the solution. Again, level of emotion, level of thought, level of action, but like heavy on the action for killing your success wound.

Matt: 45:47

Brook, this was an easy conversation. I'm looking at the time just going by and for me this was easy so I hope you listening. This was easy for you. Brook Taylor is the author of the book, healing the success wound. Although it's not a traditional recovery book. I could make the case that it is that you take the language and you shift it around a little bit. It's scratching the itch of the things that we do to get away from really dealing with what our real problems are. That's probably why you're listening to this podcast. Anything else worth plugging, where can I find you on social media?

Brooke Taylor: 46:26

Yeah, on Instagram, I'm Brooke V Taylor on TikTok, I'm Brooke Taylor career coach, and you can learn more about my coaching, my programs, the book at Brooke Taylor coaching.com.

Matt: 46:37

I'm going to put all of that in the link. I don't know. I think your social media looks pretty professional to me.

Brooke Taylor: 46:43

Thanks.

Matt: 46:43

That's I dig that stuff. I dig the professionalism aspect and then it kills me when I see the stuff that looks kind of raw and they've got big numbers. Maybe you're raw is good. Brook, thanks for coming on sober friends. I really appreciate you joining us this week.

Brooke Taylor: 47:00

Thanks, Matt. I loved our conversation. I

Matt: 47:02

it. Yeah,

Brooke Taylor: 47:02

appreciate

Matt: 47:02

me too. We'll see everybody next week. Bye everybody.