I Got Sober. I Still Avoid the Phone

Sobriety can take away the drinking, but it does not automatically fix the part of us that avoids uncomfortable things. In this episode, Matt and Steve talk about the everyday tasks that can become weirdly heavy in recovery: making the phone call, going back to the dentist, dealing with money, choosing a contractor, or finally handling the thing we’ve been putting off.

This conversation is about the anxiety that builds when we avoid, and the relief that often comes from taking one small action. Matt and Steve get honest about how avoidance still shows up in sober life, why it can feel worse once you know better, and how breaking the task down can make the next right thing feel possible.

Transcript

Matt: 0:00

Welcome to the Sober Friends podcast. I'm @J over there is Steve if you've ever wondered whether life can get Really better without alcohol. You're in the right place whether you need a recovery house sometimes sober or you're just supporting somebody you'd love or glad you hear This is a podcast about sobriety emotional growth and learning how to navigate life I'm having to drink about it. Steve, what's going on with you?

Steve: 0:26

Not much Matt. How are you doing today?

Matt: 0:28

I want to talk about avoidance here because I've had a lot of anxiety about avoidance We've talked about money I think there's some avoidance issues that I have that are tied up With that sobriety doesn't remove avoidance It just makes it harder to hide from I think this is especially true When you're in a program because you're kind of expected to do the work you can't go crapping on people anymore Without making an amends and you've got to do the next right action So I think there's to me it's even more pressing when I'm avoiding something that it pushes even harder sobriety has made it really It's like took the fun out of avoiding and doing the wrong thing. This is I think one of those things I don't think the goal is to shame people. I don't want to feel shame for a avoiding thing I just I need to notice the pattern Talk about the truth and then take the right action So curious how this lands for you and Was avoidance ever a thing for you? Is it a thing for you now

Steve: 1:30

um yeah avoidance Was always a thing for me and still can be less so but still can be um and just as you said i mean It's it's made it more. I don't know I sure if it's made it more difficult But it's made me more aware that I shouldn't be avoiding right that I shouldn't be avoiding

Matt: 1:54

doing and

Steve: 1:54

You know my sobriety in a in general that program Challenges me to do the next right thing which is not to avoid things right is to meet them head-on whatever that whatever the reason might be um and and deal with it And typically I have found in my experience that The pain of it avoidance and going through the suffering that's not the suffering I mean not the pain the suffering of me avoiding doing something is way worse than actually doing it

Matt: 2:31

Mm-hmm

Steve: 2:32

when I finally get around to doing it and cleaning up whatever mess. I might think there is it's It's way less than I thought it would be and it's like why did I wait for it and and I'll give you a perfect example Well, it's funny that we're talking about I just pissed popped in my head Due to what's going on was going on in my life in the 2025 and into 2026 I had a dentist appointment for routine cleaning Back in March of 2025 I woke up at the flu And I canceled I literally woke up at the flu. I canceled that that morning and but my life changed in March, April, May of 2025 my wife had suffered broken leg and and was really homebound for a long one of the last things on my mind was Making a new dentist appointment and I finally got around to Couple months ago and I realized like by the time I get an dentist it'll be happened two years So it's like I don't right. I don't think I've gone that long one of the things that was happening. I was thinking about changing my dentist Because my wife always went to the dentist. We have the same insurance Her dentist would take our insurance completely. She'd never got a bill my dentist. Oh, I would always get a bill So I was thinking like I should change dentists you know like why should I be paying this insurance? You're getting on it. So that was a part of it. anyway finally I got in there just just yesterday I get in there and A little bit was avoidance of me not wanting to change dentist all that kind of stuff and trust me I was worried I mean, I'm old, you know Child of the 50s and 60s when you know my mouth is full of cavity Full of feelings and stuff like that because that's the way it was back then. And you know, lo and behold, they get out of there. Everything looked good. I really was on a good dental hygiene thing, but everything was good. But I had a lot of anxiety over it, right? And that's what you're talking about the anxiety. I had a lot of anxiety about going to the dentist's appointment thinking, oh my God, it's just going to cost me hundreds or thousands of dollars because I haven't done anything for the last two years, right? And then she looked at it and she said, yeah, it was September. It was September 24, the last time I went to the dentist. Wait, like I said, I haven't done that. I mean, I go every six months. I've been doing that for the last probably 30 years, more than that, maybe. So anyway, but yeah, that avoidance anyway, but like I said, so what I find is like, actually, taking action is easier for me than avoiding. And even if it's a bad thing, right? Because then at least you address it, you move it, you get rid of it, or you deal with it if you have to go-- if it has a query. Yeah. And none of that goes away, right? Discover sober. Just because we find sobriety doesn't mean any of that stuff goes away. And why should it? Normal people have to deal with that stuff. Not an alcoholic's have to deal with that stuff. So we're not special, you know? We just have to deal with what we have to deal with.

Matt: 5:27

Now, here's what's special about us. We generally have less tools available to us when those situations happen that it rolls off other people's back. With us without treatment, it becomes a paralyzing thing. For me, it's definitely an ADHD thing. And I see, as time goes by, this handshake between the ADHD and addiction, that it is something that alcohol was the solution in the medication for ADHD, which was untreated at the time. And with ADHD, if it's a money issue, it's very easy for me to avoid. Avoid, avoid, avoid, avoid. It's too painful. And then when that pressure builds, that is the thing that would make me drink because it would make me feel better. It would relieve the pain. I don't have that anymore. So I sure better take the next right action that is the right thing for me to do, because if I don't, I'm just going to be more and more miserable. Maybe today it doesn't get me to a drink. But it might tomorrow or someday, and these things may just cascade. And I do. I've got this flight that I got to purchase. We're now about a week out. And part of me has been delaying this because the fuel prices were just so high. And the price of fuel is starting to come down, and now it's like, we're right at the end. It's like, crap, what am I going to do? What if we can't afford it? What am I going to say to my son? And all of those questions go up. And the thing that happens is I just freeze. And then I do nothing. And that's a form of avoidance. I talked in therapy this week. And I talked about, you know, the thought process I have is if I just didn't have financial burdens, then I wouldn't have anxiety. But who is that the case for, unless you're like a multi-millionaire? And I think even if you're loaded, you probably have things that are hanging over your head. It's unrealistic to think if I just had more money than I wouldn't have money anxiety. That's not the case because the money anxiety comes from somewhere else. The question there is, what are the things that I can use self-talk to say, I have this, what action can I take? What things can I do? What's the worst that could happen? And get through it productively. So I had some stock. I started a little bit of a sell-off. I have some of that for the flight now. There are things I can do.

Steve: 8:05

Yeah. And the first thing I have to do, right, we talk about our program is we talk about the steps. And step three, made a decision to turn my life and my will over to the god I understand him, higher power as I understand him. But that's a decision, right? That's a decision. And we talk about, first, you have to make a decision, and then you have to start taking some action. So you found the solution. You made a decision, oh, I got some stock I could sell. And then you took some action and sold it. And that gets the ball rolling. So again, that

Matt: 8:44

as

Steve: 8:44

feeds into our steps. It's like, that's why the steps we do them in the order we do them in, because we emit some stuff. We make some decisions. And then the next thing we have to do, oh, now we have to take some action. We have to do a fourth step. We have to start looking at ourselves, right? And that gets us rolling. It's the same thing when we-- and that's the whole point, right? So my program of AA gives me a solution for everyday life, right? I've got to make a decision. OK. I've got to make a decision. And then I've got to take action. But why if I are involved in the same thing, right? I have a pool that I need a new liner on. We finally got all our bids in. We go through that. We've added some other stuff that we want to do separate of the pool, and now it's like to sit down like, okay, I said this tour tonight. I'm like, hey, we gotta sit down to this afternoon after I do a pie after dinner probably. And go through these things and go through the numbers, right? To let us like, we both need to know like, okay, this is what we're talking about spending. Now, we can afford to spend what we're talking about, but I just want to make sure I told her, I'm like, one of the things these days is she lets me do a lot of that stuff. And this is just too much money that we're going to be talking about that I need to do that I'm going to do it on my own. Like, we just both have to know what the numbers are, and then we can say, yeah, we want to do this. We want to spend that much money and do these projects that we've been talking about. One of them needs to get done where we need to do my pool. We need to do that, so again, but the program has taught me and I told them, I have to go through this, I'll pull all the numbers together, we'll sit down, we'll discuss it, and then we'll, you know, we'll make a decision. And that's what we'll do tonight. Now, I have this weird thing. I have a weird thing, and I don't know what it is, but I don't like to disappoint people. So, I'm going to have to select a contractor to do my pool liner out of three contractors, all of which I talked to, and I basically got to tell two of them, I didn't select them. That bothers me.

Matt: 10:55

It bothers me too. I can totally identify

Steve: 10:57

that.

Matt: 10:57

with

Steve: 10:57

I got to tell these people who are perfectly competent. Oh, yeah, you're perfectly competent. I just can't, I'm just not going to choose you. And I don't know why that bothers me as much as it does. But I could have some avoidance with that too, you know,

Matt: 11:18

absolutely.

Steve: 11:18

But, you know, we'll do it, and I'll do it, and I'll send a note out. And that's a nice thing. All these kids come into e-mail, and I could send something out, hey, now thanks for the offer. We decided to do something whatever it might be. But it does cause me some anxiety. Not only the point, like, we're going to spend some money, we're going to afford it, but still we're going to spend some money. Yeah, our bank accounts are going to show the difference. You know, and I told them like, trust me, we've lived in a house that we lived in the house for 22 years. Like, there's work to be done, maintenance stuff, nothing falling down, refinishing floors, things like that stuff that we need to do over a regular time, some of which we've been talking about doing for a couple of years. Again, my wife's health gotten away of doing some of that stuff. Now we've got something we have to do. We have to do this pool line. So it's going to bump some of this other stuff down the line. So there is anxiety around that, right? There always is anxiety. And lucky, and I talk about lucky for us, lucky for me, I still work. So it's easier to crunch those numbers and go, yeah, I can, you basically in the next six months, I'll make enough money to sort of pay for all this stuff. Just

Matt: 12:33

go

Steve: 12:34

Which gets me nervous about quitting know, 68 years old now. It's like I'm going to have to stop working one of these days. that financial insecurity. today, I know, oh, I'm going to replenish that money. It's going to take a while, but I'm going to replenish that Once I stop working, I might replenish it, but it's going to take a lot longer. And maybe I won't be replenishing it. There will be a day where I'm just drawing. I'm not saving and putting money in, you know. And that still makes me a little nervous, But again, the program tells me that all of these things going to be It tells me everything's going to be okay. It's not going to be perfect. it shouldn't be perfect, because life's life's not perfect. had a busy day. I've been really busy with some projects that I've been working on finished up the project that went on for better part of two months. It was pretty good. I'm really happy And then I went to my noon meeting today, which I love. And I was able to talk to another alcoholic who's, you know, struggling a told my wife, I'd be home. She was kind of at that point. And I'm like, I'll be home by it was pretty close to two o'clock by the time I walked in, because, you know, this alcoholic was struggling and we had an outside. And we, you know, we did what alcoholics do. We talked for half an hour. And I gave him some tips and suggestions that maybe he will. Maybe he won't And I told him, I said, you know. When I came into this somebody gave me a lot. And I told this person like, if you want, just call I'm willing to give you as much time as you need because somebody did that for me. So when I have a full day like that, I had some projects done. I got some stuff done. I go to a meeting. And then I have an opportunity to talk to another alcoholic. It's a pretty good day. And it allows me to separate and not worry about some of these other things that I got going around on my head. just because I'm sober, it doesn't mean my it goes away, it doesn't mean my avoidance, it goes away. doesn't mean my character defects. Maybe some of them do, but it doesn't mean all of them are going to go away. It means that maybe some of them won't go away.

Matt: 14:27

This seems so obvious, but I need to hear that. And I needed to hear that early on I have all these feelings going on, I'm doing it wrong." And I'm not doing it wrong, and you're not doing it wrong if you feel this way. It's just that you need to find the right path. I do a whole bunch of avoidance when it comes to reaching out to other people.

Steve: 14:48

Mm-hmm.

Matt: 14:48

That I just can't get past in my head, picking up the phone and calling somebody. It just becomes a task that becomes way too big, and then I can't do it at all, and then I avoid. I think for me it is just doing that next task, breaking the task down into smaller parts. That's what tends to work for me. If it becomes way too big, then I shut down. If it becomes something I can do at the end of a bunch of small tasks, then I can. And just doing that next small task always makes me feel better. I had just raging anxiety this morning about this issue. And then I started taking some small steps. So I started taking some steps at work of other things that just needed to do, and just taking action on something, even if it's not on this particular issue, taking action on the next thing that I need to do, even if it's not related to this, made me feel better. Because I was getting out of my own head and I was

Steve: 15:51

Mm-hmm.

Matt: 15:51

taking an action and I was moving the ball forward somewhere. And I think I just need to have that feeling of moving the ball forward in some way is the thing that makes me feel better. And that really ties in to do the next right action, which is an A saying.

Steve: 16:11

nice to be able to do that and you hit on something that I think is really beneficial to a lot of people. And it's part of the conversation I had with this other alcoholic. It's not weird saying, you know, of many words saying, saying that we have an A move of muscle change of thought, right? So what you talked about was moving something forward on a different project, right? That's what that is, right? Like you're stuck on this project and I've been able to do that myself. You're stuck on whatever it might be. You're stuck on this thing. You're stuck on this trip you have to might have to take the financial part of it. But yet, you could be productive elsewhere. And just that makes you feel good. At least that makes me feel good. Like, oh, I got something done. And I told my wife yesterday. Yesterday I had this huge day where I was working on this project and then it was rainy, which was good. To sort of like an inside project. And I always have that. I have inside projects and outside projects. And I always have a project going on just like I told that said to me. Just because I got down with this project doesn't mean I'm done. Just means I move on to the next thing. But I'm also able to do a couple of things that I wanted to do. Small. Small. I move the light switch, right? I fixed an outlet that I needed to be fixed. And I just thought of like, I should have a punch list. And I do in my head, but I don't write it down. And I said, I should have a punch list so that I could cross these things off and then show you everything I get done because she doesn't know what she doesn't care. Like, you know, this, that, things just happen and half the stuff she doesn't even know need to be fixed. But just so I could see that accomplishment, right? It's like a gratitude. Just so I could see like, oh, I've done a lot of stuff, right? And that, and my point is that way I could feel good about it. And that way, because there's always something I haven't had done. Like I started working around my pool and cleaning it all up. And this got derailed because the pool itself needed some attention, so that whole project of cleaning things up is still out there, right? And I'm like, okay, I got to get back out there and finish that job. But I was able to do some other stuff in the meantime. And for me, that just gives me a good feeling, it makes me feel good about myself. Again, I don't get stuck in that world when I'm feeling shitty or I'm feeling like, ugh. You know, I can't afford this awg, and I spend all this money aww. How many times I, you know, have I wanted to do a project in the house and even though it might need to be done, or maybe it was more of a one, I just couldn't pull the trigger on it. And it sat there forever. And it didn't get done. You know, uhm, and I'm starting to realize that today I've talked to my wife about that and I'm like, we have to do some work. We have to, we have to pull the trigger on some of these jobs. Like, we have to we finish our floors, which I mean, basically is going to mean we have to move out of our house, because there's no, there's no reason to piece me a little like we should just move out of our house, we finish our floors and then move back in on, you know, go get an Airbnb move back in and be done with it. We'll never have to do it again, right. So, but that's a big, you know, talk about anxiety. Talk about, you know, trying to fit that end of, okay, you got to go out, you got to do all this kind of stuff. So it's easier to do nothing sometimes. And that's like that is

Matt: 19:42

Yep.

Steve: 19:43

one of the jobs, right. Like we have we've been working on this for almost two years probably. And it's like, I mean, that's what we've done. We've done nothing on it, because such a big job. It requires so much, so much. And it's not, that's not a money job that bothered like that. That wasn't a job where like all the money was too much. I was like, what do we do it all as shit. Like where do we put it literally like I can't move half of our furniture these days, right. I mean, some hiring people.

Matt: 20:11

Yep.

Steve: 20:12

Probably come in. So and it's easy. I talked to my buddy, you know, our buddy John is like, yeah, just, you know, just becomes part of the, you know, becomes part of the job. And I go, yeah, I get that, like I get that. I have to hire a couple of guys come move to big furniture. It just becomes part of the job. As does if I have to move out and go get an Airbnb for a week, whatever it might be. It does, but then the money starts getting bigger, right. And again, so it's easy to freeze up on those things, which is what we're talking about having that anxiety and then just do nothing about it. But that leaves bad taste in my mouth. And, you know, and what that does for me, it takes away my serenity. Right. Now I've always said takes away my serenity. If I'm anxious, if I'm upset, if I feel like I'm not doing something that I'm not serene. Right. I'm not this people joyful, happy person. I'm probably edgy. I'm probably short. I'm probably snappy. I'm probably mean at times. Like, that's not the person I want to be. So it comes back to the fact that we need to take action because the, the cumulative effect of taking no action is a lot worse. Like I said, it's an impact so many things in my life.

Matt: 21:27

I have been avoiding getting my shingles vaccine. because I don't want to lose a weekend because I'm afraid it's going to lay me up. And I'm going to feel terrible

Steve: 21:37

Yeah,

Matt: 21:37

for a couple of days. So I've been avoiding getting it and got for better get shingles because that's going to be a hell of a lot worse than a day or two of feeling lousy. But I'm avoiding that. But also I'm prioritizing other things. I think there is something to be said prioritizing something because you can't do everything at once. But you kind of know the things that you are avoiding.

Steve: 22:01

Right.

Matt: 22:02

I've done some things around the house that I've actually had has been helpful. There are things I always want to do. Like I want to take the dogs for a walk immediately after work, but I also only have so much time to do some things around the yard. But if I don't do the things around the yard regularly, they build up. So I just said screw it. I am going to tie up twine on the trolleys, and I'm going to set a clock for half hour. And I'm going to do a little bit of that. And I may not be able to take the dogs for a walk today. But I will have more time to do that later on because then I won't have to go into the backyard and do this stuff when it becomes something more overwhelming. If I get this trellis stuff done now, the growth going up takes care of itself. So that has been a big change for me and mostly because I'm I'm understanding the ADHD triggers here and this will prevent me from getting over stressed out. But I might be taking action and I might be doing an action because it is the excuse for me to be doing the thing that I should be doing. So I got to think of a bunch of stuff. What am I avoiding? And then what's the story that I'm telling myself? It's going to be too hard. I'm not going to be ready. It's not going to matter. What am I trying not to feel? Is it fears? It's shame, embarrassment, uncertainty. All the uncertainty is the worst for me. What is the smallest, honest action? So make that small. Who can I tell? So I think it's really bringing people in. What do you think avoidance costs us? You talked a little bit about serenity to me. They're really big emotional consequences here for for me it's

Steve: 23:58

I

Matt: 23:58

anxiety.

Steve: 23:58

mean, yeah, the consequences could be big. Like I said, first of all, if I'm avoiding something, and I'm not talking about it, and I'm not dealing with it, I could get to a place where I'm, you know, I'm snapping at my wife and picking at my wife, and I'm sure, and whatever it might be, and I'm not happy, like I'm unhappy,'cause I have this pressure, I have this internal pressure that nobody can see, I'm the only one who can feel it, and then avoidance can also be, if I can cost you more money. Let's face it, especially if you're talking about a project, you know, I mean, it could save you money maybe, but most of the time, if you're talking about a project, you're delay doing for two or three years, 'cause you're just avoiding, it's not gonna be cheaper. (laughing)

Matt: 24:48

No,

Steve: 24:49

probably not gonna be cheaper to do it somewhere down the road. You know, so, you know, I don't know, I think, to me, the cost is too high, and I like I said, I do better with it. I do better. You know, there's not a lot of things I need to, there's not a lot of things that I have on my plate these days because of where I am in life that are crucial. Like I said, a lot of some of them are projects at home, some of them are making some of those decisions, and today some of my decisions are made for me, right? I get it, and what, you know, I talked about it, and I don't remember if we talked about it, but like I knew my pool liner needed to be changed, like I knew we were due for a new pool liner, and just a typical way, right? I've known that for two or three years, like, oh, I should think we should think about changing. It's just hard to pull a trigger on a multi-thousand dollar job when you maybe don't need it, and then when I open up my pool and there's a three foot tear in it. Okay, now the decision's made for me. Doesn't matter what, I mean, I could work on the cost, I could do some due diligence and get some pricing, but, you got a choice. Fixed to pool and not fixed to pool, and if I don't fix the pool, then, you know, anyway. So sometimes those choices are made for me, and I said, and this is the beauty about this program. I had a bit of a time open in my pool. I had a lot of problems. Just everything seemed to go wrong, for everything went wrong. But this program has taught me, I said, do you know something? Number one, that's the way I roll, right, which means I needed these things to happen in order for me to address them, right? 'Cause I just wouldn't address them otherwise. I've been talking about getting a new filter for a couple of years, well. My filter, you know, so it's like, all this stuff is happening, and number two, it pushes me to realize like, if I want to do some of the work and take care of some of it myself, I can. So, you know, I have the gratitude, and I have the insight to go, it's just not life-sucking, you know, it's just not like, oh, life's kicking me in the butt every day, even though that's somewhat true right now. But it's like, oh yeah, you know? It's like taking my own inventory, right? Really? It's like taking my own inventory. Oh yeah, this is how I roll. I wasn't gonna change my, I probably wasn't gonna change my pool liner until I woke up one day, and there was a hole in it.

Matt: 27:25

Yep.

Steve: 27:25

You know? And then I have to change it, just the way it works. So, as long as I could accept that about myself, then it's not, there's not a lot of anxiety over it. You know, I'm not happy about it, but it's not

Matt: 27:39

Mm-hmm.

Steve: 27:39

like. If I, listen, if I didn't have a hole in it, I wouldn't be fixing it this year, just wouldn't be, I know it wouldn't be.

Matt: 27:45

Yeah.

Steve: 27:46

So, you know?

Matt: 27:48

This is your hand.

Steve: 27:49

Right. And again, there's lots of things like that, right? There's lots of things like And so, today, and like I said, today I could have some gratitude. This is the whole thing about it, right? I could have some gratitude over understanding that about myself, where, like in the path, and I'm not even talking about what I'm drinking, I was talking about when I'm early sobriety, before I was able to have a little bit of enlightenness, if you will, of, just self-realization who I am as a person, I would not have been able to do that. I would have not have been able to have any piece of serenity over, you know, spending multiple thousand dollars redoing my pool. Now, I hope the job come out wrong. The last time I had a line of done, it was one of these jobs that went horribly wrong. The guy

Matt: 28:35

that.

Steve: 28:35

did

Matt: 28:35

Mm.

Steve: 28:35

a poor job, and I've dealt with it for the last 12 or 13 years. This is a, you know, this is an opportunity to change that, and feel good about this, and feel good about my pool. So, I look at these things now today in a very different light, because I'm sober, because I have a program, because I have tools, all those type of things. And, you know, I'm my own, just like that, you know, I'm my own, I couldn't do it. I need the fellowship, I need the program. I needed to show up at my -- I needed to show up at my meeting today, and the reading was about a full and -- a full and grateful heart, you know? And here everybody's share about having a full and grateful heart. Um, and realize, yeah, I need to have that too, no matter what's going on in my

Matt: 29:24

life. Stay with your friends, friends, pod, to help me through this avoidance stuff.

Steve: 29:43

You got it Matt.

Matt: 29:45

We'll see everybody next week. Bye everybody.