I Wasn’t as Bad as Them, So I Kept Drinking

As long as Matt wasn’t drinking like his father—and Steve wasn’t as bad as the people he grew up around—they could tell themselves they weren’t really alcoholics. There was always someone who had lost more, drank more, or looked more like the stereotype.

In this episode, Matt and Steve talk about how comparing your drinking to someone else’s worst consequences can keep you stuck. You don’t have to lose your job, your family, or everything you own before you’re allowed to admit alcohol is hurting your life. The better question isn’t whether you look like an alcoholic. It’s whether drinking has become a problem for you.

Transcript

Matt: 0:00

Welcome to the sober friends podcast. My name is Matt Jane. Over there is Steve. If you've wondered what whether life can really get better with that alcohol, you're in the right place. Whether you're new to recovery, have some time sober, or you're supporting someone you love. We're glad that you hear this is a podcast about sobriety, emotional growth, learning how to navigate life without having to drink over it. What's going on with you, Steve?

Steve: 0:26

Not much, Matt, it's a good day to be here. Yeah, navigating life.

Matt: 0:32

Yep, that's

Steve: 0:34

going to be tough navigating the next couple of days up here in the Northeast.

Matt: 0:38

Yeah, in the Northeast, it's going to

Steve: 0:39

hot, hot, hot, it's going to bake

Matt: 0:42

my favorite temperature over a hundred degrees, not at all.

Steve: 0:45

Yeah, right. Yeah, it can be ugly.

Matt: 0:50

You can crack open a cold one as long as it is like a waterloo like I have here. There's no booze in there. There's plenty plenty to drink that isn't going to get you all messed up. Well, I want to ask this question. What's the picture that comes to mind when you heard the first heard the word alcoholic, Steve? What was that and did it look anything like you?

Steve: 1:12

Oh, absolutely not. Didn't that look like me? Let me see, I grew up in an alcoholic home. So I sort of knew what an alcoholic was. Or at least I had a vision of it. But I guess I shouldn't say that. The first time I remember hearing it, now to think about it, I was much younger than that. And it was before I knew my mom struggled with addiction. And I can remember, I grew up in the projects and I can remember that time. There was lots of drugs and alcohol around. Not for me, I was a bit young until just before we left the projects. But I can remember my brothers, people and other people in the projects having troubles with drugs and alcohol. And it looked to be like a really low bottom, you know, like problematic, you know, not a, not what I understand today, right? I mean, doctors, lawyers, everybody, right? Today, I understand what it looks like. But back then, it was like, yeah, I mean, I remember, I remember vividly, I don't know, I must have been 10, 11 years old that there's some abandoned apartments in our complex. And this one guy was sort of holed up. I'm sure he was a drug user and he was holed up in this abandoned, it was big news. Right? Everybody standing around, the cops are there. It was like, that's what I thought an alcoholic and addict were like that type of person. Oh, yeah, you're going to be holed up in some empty apartment. The cops are going to be around that kind of thing. So that was my first thought of what it looked like. And like I said, and then I, yeah, as I got older, I got into my middle teens. I started realizing that my mom had a problem and I certainly was able to see what it looked like for her. So I changed a little bit for me.

Matt: 3:03

It was my father, I thought of. I think was my first idea of what an alcoholic was. He wasn't evil guy. He never got over. He beat my mom. I know that I suffered some type of PTSD because of him, just for the fact that he hung swords on the wall. They fell on me as a toddler broke my head open and he didn't want to take me to get treated because he wasn't done with the lawn yet. I still have the scar.

Steve: 3:33

Yeah.

Matt: 3:34

I think about that. I'm like, well, that might be, that might be the PTSD trigger or one of them. And so I never to end up like him. And as long as I wasn't beating my wife, drinking a jug of gala one night, and just was a general malcontent through life. I guess I would be fine. And I don't think that that's the picture. When you mentioned this guy, hold up in that in that building. I think about a very early meeting I went to when I got sober pretty early on. And I went to 10th leopard meeting in East Hartford. And one of the homeless guys came in. And he was, this guy was filthy. Just he was the textbook definition of what you think of with an alcoholic.

Steve: 4:34

Right.

Matt: 4:34

To the point of we hold hands at the end. And I'm like, oh my god, I got to hold this guy's hand. He's he's filthy. I'm not as I'm a little bit more empathetic now, but if you look at this guy, this is what if you don't know alcohol, you think that's alcoholic. And if I'm not like that, maybe I don't have a problem. I'm reminded on story night that we had on our Monday Night meeting that we read the story of of Marty Mann. And what struck me just wasn't her story. but was how her story changed. So Marty Mann is an early pioneer of alcoholics and on a mess. Her story is Women's Suffer II. Page 200 to 208, very short, but she was sponsored directly by Bill W. She's the first woman to get sober, long term. And early on, like 1938, 1939, time with a big book, not a friendly time for women alcoholics, not a friendly time for women in the rooms, especially out in Akron, where they didn't take kindly to the women coming in and mixing with the men. She had long term sobriety, she found it high,

Steve: 5:50

is

Matt: 5:51

a recovery center not too far from where we live. And she had advocacy for understanding alcoholism as a disease to reduce stigma. So she later on became kind of a scholar, wrote books, but she really, if Dr. Silk with, refers, but I would say Marty Mann too, really are responsible for the idea that alcoholism is in a moral failing. It is a disease. And I'd say that's her greatest contribution, may not be of what she accomplished, but changing who we believe recovery was meant for. And I think that really is the thing that connected with me. You don't have to be a fall-down drunk in the gutter, absolutely filthy. You can be a CEO. You can drive a sports car. As a matter of fact, in many ways, I think the person who has a lot of success, at least what the outside looks as for success, could be the someone more in pain because they think if they haven't lost everything, they don't have a problem, they don't have to stop. And I think that can be a real dangerous place.

Steve: 7:19

Yeah, I think, again, like you said, it's different. We've been around the room long enough to meet enough people, to know that this disease takes no prisoner, just no matter base upon gender, sexual identity, anything. You know, economic social status doesn't matter. And you sit right in the rooms, right? And you sit next to people, you know, doctors, like MDs and PhDs, PhDs galore. I know several in the room, right? And, yeah, it's just not a little bound. And you know, women and whatever. So today, nothing surprises me, right? This is the other thing. They're like nothing surprises me when it comes to addiction and alcoholism. It saddens me. And I'm going through something right now with someone who, you know, has reached out for help. And just admittedly, just says, I guess I'm just not ready to stop. And, and like, I get it. I do. Like I totally understand that. There's a lot of people who say, you know, you couldn't have got me in these rooms with a gun 24 hours before I came into these rooms. So I like, they came in when they were ready. It's the point they're

Matt: 8:48

And

Steve: 8:48

making.

Matt: 8:48

not a moment to assume.

Steve: 8:51

And right. And so

Matt: 8:52

I mean, not a moment sooner.

Steve: 8:55

Right. Right. Yep. And, and, you know, somebody said it was my Friday night meeting. Yeah, I think it was. I had to do every single thing I had to do to get here, right? Including the bad thing, the whole point was including all the mistakes, including all the times where I should have come. And like I had to do all those things before I got here. So, you know, and that's the way you can look at that and not feel like, oh, I should have gotten here earlier, right. Which is something I suffered from for a while because I was so I was 52 years old when I got here and really got this program. I didn't get it at 52, but that's when I started to really work this program at 52. And I look back at it and I think, oh, well, yeah. Now that I could see, right. It's money more than quarterback, right? So, oh, no, if I had done this 20 years ago, boy, my life would have been great. But it doesn't work that way. And I don't live in that life. So, so today I could look at this and, again, nothing surprises me. So an alcoholic is somebody who says that they're struggling with drinking, right? I mean, we talk about it all the time in this podcast. It's not about volume. It's not like you don't need to drink a whole bunch of alcohol and be fall down drunk, which is what I was, to be an alcoholic. You just need to have a problem where it's becoming a problem in your life. and.. and that you need to deal with that. So there's lots of different and that's the beauty of our program. Right? The beauty of our program is that... you can, there's a whole spectrum of when you can come into these rooms. And I can remember coming in and judging people, when they came in and they started sharing their story and I'm like, "Oh, that's nothing. That's not what you,

Matt: 10:49

Hah!

Steve: 10:50

what are you here for?" Right? Like, "Oh, when? This is like, you, you barely, you barely felt the nip of the, you know, of the fire." But good for them. Right? Good for them. Today, I'm like, good for them. So, yeah, you, An alcoholic looks like whatever they want to look like. You know,

Matt: 11:11

you know. Mhmmm.

Steve: 11:12

I mean, we always say, like, "You're an alcoholic, if you say you're an alcoholic." Right? That's it.

Matt: 11:18

Yes.

Steve: 11:19

If you say you're an alcoholic, that's why we assign, we assign our own sobriety dates. Right? Nobody assigns us sobriety date for us. I mean, obviously that does happen for some people. Some people literally can't remember whatever it was and they literally have to somebody. I mean, for the most part, we tell people what our sobriety date is. Nobody's telling us, so it's... We're the ones who come in and say, "Hey, listen. I'm an alcoholic. So, you know, just look around you." Like, if you're wondering what an alcoholic looks like, look around you.

Matt: 11:49

Mhmmm.

Steve: 11:50

Because there's one in... there's one in that, in that field of vision. You know, they're there, and they're not easy to spot, unless you really know what you're looking for.

Matt: 12:04

There's a lot more out there. It's funny that when you run into people who are in recovery, there's a lot more of us out there than you might think. There's a lot more who deserve to be here. You mentioned something about not comparing. You mentioned a little bit Monday about your little bit of a mental meltdown you had around the house. I have had my own issues. I think I've shared quite a bit. I'm tapering off of an anti-anxiety drug that I have been on for over 10 years because I have been terrified of the tapering process. Not because I think it's the best medication for me. I'm not saying I don't belong on some type of medication. I just think the right medication is not this, but you got to get off of one to get onto something else. I have reached the end, and this has been so grueling. Your problem and my problem are very different, but our capacity for it is the same. So just because one person is suffering with one thing and you think,"Oh, that's nothing." Anybody can say to your problem that's nothing. Everybody has it. You're always gonna find somebody who has a little bit worse, or a little bit better. But that doesn't matter if it is the worst problem to you at that moment. I'm not ever gonna minimize somebody's problem or compare it to somebody else. If what I consider is not that big of a deal, but it is to you, then it's a big deal. We all have capacity for the bullshit, and sometimes we reach that capacity at a very high level. And sometimes the ceiling for that is pretty damn low. And I think the same is true of determining that time that you wanna stop drinking. There are some people who come in early, and you can come in early. You don't have to wait until you're rolling around in the gutter. You can come in before you have lost it all and get ahead of it. And it doesn't mean you have any less of a problem. And to me it's if I can enjoy it, can I control it, if I can control it, can I enjoy it? If the answer to those things are no, then I probably have found my seat.

Steve: 14:32

>> Absolutely.

Matt: 14:33

>> For what were comparisons that kept you from realizing your own alcoholism?

Steve: 14:38

>> For me it was simple, right? I've talked about it before, I had a brother who was, so I had my mom. And I was struggling with alcohol for a long time before I admitted it. Part of that was because I wasn't drinking and passing out every night. Towards the end I did, right? Towards the end I did. But long before I could have come into the rooms, you couldn't have gone. I shouldn't say that because there was no way you would have got me in these rooms. Just like I said, you would have never gotten me in these rooms. Because I just didn't identify as an alcoholic. Even though I drank problematically. And then the second part was, but the other part was, is that my whole family and I mean it. My whole family, six kids, we all drank and part, all of us. So we were all doing it. It wasn't like we had one straight neuro sibling who we could have hold up as a model. We didn't have anyone on anyone. My dad drank, my mom drank, we all drank and drugged. Yeah, my mom and dad didn't drink. The rest was dead. And then I had a brother who also had some very, you know, later we realized had some mental health issues, but became a really big crack head and early on. I can remember, I can remember watching my brother at a party. He calls me over, you know, he was only two years older than me and somebody is shooting him up. Like he's taking drugs intervenously, which scared the crap out of me. I would, I never did that because I was petrified. But I watched him and he didn't do it. Somebody else did a forum. And so that I looked at that, right? And he was in and out of rehab long before I came into the program. So I was like, oh, I'm not, I'm not him. I'm not that. So yeah, I drank too much. Yeah, I've had car accidents. Yeah, I've smashed total cars. Yeah, that's just part of the deal, right? I mean, like I, I knew a half a dozen people who did those things. Because that's also who I hung out with, right? I just want to go back to something you said about

Matt: 16:56

our

Steve: 16:57

problems, right? And here's the thing about our problems is my I had a series of problems, I had a series of events. And this is just yesterday. It was just was one of these days, a series of small events. One after another, like everywhere I turned, it seemed like there was a roadblock to me making progress of stuff I wanted to make progress with. So and there was some other thing is actually started and I won't get into it, but it started Sunday after I got home from my hike and all that kind of stuff. So there's a little bit of leftover stuff from Sunday night and I woke up Monday. And I finally got some projects done. And I just kept hitting road blocks road road and it's not the problems. It's what happens to me and how I'm feeling with those problems. Like you said, the capacity to handle them. And I said, I was, I was having, I was on the verge of milk. I didn't have a meltdown, but I was on the verge of a meltdown. And that's how this little piece like my wife, we have a guard, we have a pool and there's a little guard next to it, which is my wife's garden who she can't take care of anymore. So I try to do the best I can, but I'm not a gardener. And there's a little decorative pink bike in there. It's really cute. And I was trying to power wash some offencing around the and I knocked over this bike once and it pissed me off because bike was in the way. Now I had to do take the bike out of the garden. It's easy to pick it up and move it out of the garden, right, it's easy. But I put it back up and I knocked it over the second time and and I said this. I had a big urge to jump on the bike and just bend the crap out of it and turn it into scrap metal. That's what I'm talking about. So it doesn't matter what my problems was like, that's where I was emotionally, right. I didn't do that, which is real good progress for me. I mean it like, that's a win for me. And here's what I forgot to share last night. But I went through all that and I had to take a trip up the lows and there was some traffic problems going to lows and all that. And here's what I didn't share and I missed it. Sometimes just miss it. After all that stuff, here's the miracle of the program is in lows and all of some of my phone rings and that's another alcohol. And it's Jeff from who comes to our Monday night meeting. And Jeff is calling Jeff from my sponsors and he's calling just to check in and we laugh. And he goes, I was prize this me. I'm like, now you call me once a while. And I was able to I was able to literally sit on a box in the middle of home deep, in the middle of lows, right. And the main now when you walk into the main aisle to have all the cleaning stuff, there was like a box. I don't know what the box opens and have a 20 minute conversation with another alcoholic, right. That's the miracle of this program. Is that 20 minute conversation helped me out so much. You know, and I was able to vent with him. I told him my old story, right. Like I told him, like I was able to tell him what was going on with me. Like this, this, you know, my ass is getting kicked today. And, you know, that's where the program works. You know, I got a phone call when I needed a phone call. And, uh, and that's just the other thing. If you're out there, if you're part of this program, if you're part of AA, and you know, we talk about the phone being difficult. We always think, oh, we're going to interrupt somebody. You know, that phone call meant everything to me. He was calling me. I wasn't calling him, right. And that's the whole thing. He was calling me. I wasn't reaching out. So the program is, is beautiful in that way. So, you know, back to, you know, what alcoholics looks like, you know, I. There was a lot of people I knew around me. Before I got really bad, I watched a lot. And that was the other thing. I watched a lot of people get heavy into drugs, have a lot of problems. Like a lot of a lot of friends, a lot of young, you know, friends growing up with started really having. Especially, and you talked about, you talked about somewhere, the people who have some, you know, maybe some better means. This was it. Like I grew up in the projects, but we were surrounded by single family homes. And a lot of my friends were, you know, lived in the single family homes. And those, those guys had a little bit of money, not a lot of money, because they weren't wealthy. They were supposed to be wealthy, neighborhood. But they all got into drugs, pills, right? Stuff like that, long before I did, because I couldn't afford that stuff.

Matt: 21:30

You know,

Steve: 21:31

I could afford alcohol and I could afford some pot. And then when I realized like, oh wait, I could sell a little pot and then I could, you know, I wasn't even selling to make money. I was just selling pot so I could get my pot cheaper for free. You know, that was it for me, a little bit of pills here and there. But these other guys, they ran into troubles and I remember looking at some of these guys like, man, that's not me, right? Again, comparing, that's not me. I'm not all strong out on pills and that cut me from really understanding my own problem for a long time. Which is why it took me to 52 to get in here, you know.

Matt: 22:18

I don't think there is much of a difference between somebody who's shooting up heroin,

Steve: 22:22

no.

Matt: 22:22

Somebody who is taking more pain medication than they're supposed to be or is addicted. It's the same, same thing. It's the delivery method is different. In fact, the pill might be worse because you're telling yourself a different line. That if it's a pill, it's okay. I don't have a problem. It's all like I'm sticking a needle in my arm. When they're the same,

Steve: 22:49

they are absolute dare. I mean, today I know like the addiction doesn't matter, right?

Matt: 22:53

No.

Steve: 22:53

But yeah, like you said, the delivery method doesn't matter. And even to me today, even like, no, it's not even the delivery method, the addiction doesn't matter. Like, I'm not a gambling addict, but I understand addiction to understand that you can become a gambling addict, right? So, I'm not a cocaine addict, but I understand enough that you could go to cocaine and an addict because you were a gale. And that's the same thing. I know plenty of guys who came in, you know, I've worked with guys, I've helped guys who were, you know, who were pill users, oxy guys and stuff like that. No difference, I mean, the difference, a little bit of a difference of how it affects you and how hard it is to get off some of these drugs versus alcohol. Everything else is the same, right? The addiction triggers the, you know, it's the first pill, the first drink, whatever you might want to call it, right? It's still abstinence, you have to stay away from that first initial dose of whatever your drug is. Or if we know again, maybe it's a game, you know, whatever it's a bet, whatever it might be. It's that first thing that gets you going again. And we all just have to stay away from that.

Matt: 24:07

There are some people who can drink or even do cocaine or even gamble, and it's not a problem for them. I think the disease for us is we do those things because it takes us out of how we're feeling. It becomes the solution to the problem because the medication to that problem. It's the wrong type of medication, but is the thing that scratches the itch that makes us feel better in the moment without It's taking healthier to get past that. And I think that's where we get to the disease model. To me, the disease model doesn't remove responsibility, but it removes shame so people can finally seek help. You do have a responsibility not to do bad things when you're using. If you know you have a problem, you have a responsibility to stop using. You also should not look at yourself and say, I'm a weak person, I'm a bad person because I can't get off of this.

Steve: 25:10

You

Matt: 25:11

can't get off of this because there is something medically wrong with you. Much like if you rip your Achilles tendon, you need to have a medical solution to that problem. For me, getting off of the anti-depressant that I'm on, I need medical supervision to do that and I need to raise my hand when I'm saying this right now is causing an incredible panic attack to say it's not working to find another solution. These are all the same and I think that shame can have stigma and the stigma can keep people out there a lot longer. And they need to, and we lose lives because of

Steve: 26:00

it. We do, we lose lives every day because of that, every day. Especially for the low-bottom drug users, I get it, right? It's such a defeating, it's really really hard, I mean that's why I have a lot of compassion and empathy for people who struggle. I really do, like I said, some of them, some of you, I'm trying to help but not a sponsor or not anything like that, but just some of you that this person can talk to. It's sad to watch people struggle. And because, but, you know, just, it's just such a difficult, difficult disease. And it's why I'm so happy, um, um, you know, that I'm somewhat free of it. And I mean, I say so more because I know that I'm not immune to, I'm not immune to ever drinking again. I just, I have a program that keeps me from, even on shitty days like yesterday from really thinking that I should drink, as bad as everything was yesterday. I mean, I've never considered like I should have a drink. Never thought like, oh, I know what it'll fix this.

Matt: 27:20

OK.

Steve: 27:21

Bottle of tequila, no, I never thought that. That's only because I've done a lot of work. And I, and I am honest and I know that a bottle of tequila is not, first of all, I'm honest and I know that I can't say, I'm just going to have a couple of shots to ease the pain. Like, I understand that's a lie. I mean, I'm not going to lie to myself anymore. And I'm also not going to lie and say that somehow, you know, me getting wasted is going to help anything. And, uh, but again, that doesn't mean I'm immune to that kind of stuff.

Matt: 27:54

Uh-huh.

Steve: 27:55

This means that I have some, you know, I have a reprieve as they say in the. In the big book based on my spiritual condition. And luckily my spiritual condition was good enough yesterday to not, not only not have me pick up a drink, but also not act out in frustration. And I was able to actually talk to my wife about how frustrated I was. Like,

Matt: 28:22

hmm,

Steve: 28:23

instead

Matt: 28:23

that's,

Steve: 28:23

of being, yeah. Instead of being like coming in and taking it out on her, which is basically how I handle it many times in the past. I was able to come out and say, honey, today it's just kicking my ass and I, you know, tell her my wife's really good. Like, she, she can feel it. She is, you know, she knows it. And she knows I do a lot of work. And so. And puts her, you know, let her know, like, today's not the day to poke Steve, you know,

Matt: 28:52

right?

Steve: 28:53

You know, so it's not a day to, you know, and trust me, like, some days she misses that sign and she will poke me and they get ugly because that's just life. But, um, yesterday it was a good, yesterday it was a good day. Like I said, it was, it was a shitty day that turned out okay because number one, I got a call from another alcoholic. I had a great conversation. Number two, I went to a meeting, right? I went to my meeting. And then the biggest thing is I didn't, I didn't take a lot of alcoholic type actions. Even though I was frustrated, even though my day wasn't going well. So, that's a win in my column. That's

Matt: 29:36

Story

Steve: 29:36

a win.

Matt: 29:36

helped me.

Steve: 29:38

It's a win every day for me. So, um, so if you're out there listening to this, find those wins. Find those wins on shitty. This is my point. I guess I'm trying to make fine. The wins on shitty days, right? So, so that you can feel good about a shitty day. You can get be done and go, yeah, it was a bad day. But man, look at, look at the good stuff. I guess, I guess, I always said I don't make gratitude lists, right? But I guess, and honestly, I do. I just don't write them down, right? Because they, I do look at a day like yesterday and was able to say, look at, look at the good things that happened, right? And you know, today I got up and I had a better day. And I got all the things. And there was some roadblocks of getting some projects done. I got those projects done in a little bit more. I had a good day and I want to get some stuff done, because it's going to be really, really hot, which is going to limit to me. I like doing stuff. I like doing my projects. I like being outside. And the next few days, it's going to be like, I can be outside in the morning. I could probably be outside till 11. You know, I might be able to push it, depending what I'm doing to to sort of noon. But that's it. Then I'm, then I'm in

Matt: 30:45

Mm-hmm.

Steve: 30:45

lucky for me. I'm a, I'm a World Cup fan. And they got lots of World Cup on these days. So, you know, being there, I don't have to work. I came in today and was able to sit down and take a shower and watch, you know, watch a World Cup game at one o'clock in the afternoon. And just sit back and, and not worry about anything.

Matt: 31:07

Having the ability to do that and being able to is such a win. I think in my own situation, I talk to my wife, I'm like, as much pain as I'm in right now, with this crippling anxiety. I bet I'm handling this better than most.

Steve: 31:22

And

Matt: 31:23

the fact that I'm just, just dealing with it, not drinking, not gorging myself with chocolate, not killing people, and not crawling into a ball is a victory. And I have to be good with. It doesn't seem like a huge victory of just existing. But sometimes just existing and getting through the day is a huge victory, and it's okay to celebrate that. It's not forever. And, you know, be okay with you got through it.

Steve: 32:14

Or you felt like acting out, even if you did act out, to a certain extent, and then you didn't pick up a drink, put it in the win column, maybe. I mean, it put it in the win column. Find that, find that silver lining. Say, listen, You know, and I said the way I shared last night, like today would have been a drinking day for me. Like if, if I had, first of all,

Matt: 32:40

yeah.

Steve: 32:41

I said I would be, you know, my meeting starts at 730, like I would have been wasted at 730. After a day like yesterday, if I was a drinking, I would have been wasted. I would have been, I would have drank until I passed out last night, and I would have woke up hung over today, and I would have been useless, and I would have been miserable, because I wouldn't be able to get my stuff done because I wasn't feeling good. Like, that, that's, that's the win. That's what I celebrate. I don't need to do that anymore. And listen, I'll be forget forever grateful of this program and for the fellowship. And like I said, we read these stories, we get a chance to go around and share. Yeah, it's a, it's a beautiful thing to be sober.

Matt: 33:28

If you've spent years trying to prove you're not the type of person who could have a drinking problem, maybe you're asking the wrong question. So instead of asking, am I alcoholic enough? Why not ask, is alcohol become something I can't reliably manage on my own? And if that question is no, it's okay. The door's wide open, the water's warm, and there are a lot of people who want to support you, because it will make us feel a lot better about ourselves. All right, Steve, thanks for helping me work this one out tonight.

Steve: 34:08

You're welcome, Matt.

Matt: 34:10

See everybody next week. Bye everybody.