I Keep Finding the Next Thing That Could Go Wrong

Sometimes you solve the thing you were worried about and feel relieved for about five minutes. Then your brain finds something else that could go wrong.

Matt and Steve talk about what uncertainty does to them, from travel and job changes to money, family responsibilities, and situations where you've prepared as well as you can but still can't control the outcome. They also look back at the role alcohol used to play as a reliable way to shut down that discomfort, at least temporarily.

Matt isn't trying to become fearless or convince himself everything will work out. He's trying to notice when fear of an uncertain outcome is keeping him from taking the next reasonable action—and learning that sometimes doing what you can has to be enough.

Transcript

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Matt: 0:00

Welcome to the Silver Friends Podcast. I'm Matt J. Steve is with me too. And if you've ever wondered whether you can get better with that alcohol, you're in the right place, whether you're new to recovery, has some type of sober or you're supporting somebody you love. We're glad you joined us. And this is a podcast about sobriety, emotional growth, and learning how to navigate life without having to drink over it. How are you doing with that, Steve?

Steve: 0:27

So far, so good, Matt. You know, life has thrown me some curves and,

Matt: 0:33

yup,

Steve: 0:34

yesterday wasn't a great day. There were some curves thrown at me Friday. But, you know, I got thrown, did what I need to do, took out a couple of tools and made sure, made sure the most important thing that I didn't drink and I didn't, and the other thing that I didn't act out. Right, that I didn't act out badly. It's hard for me to say I didn't act out at all, but that I didn't act out badly. So, all good,

Matt: 0:59

that's a hard one for me. Not acting out badly when I want to.

Steve: 1:04

Right, Miko, it's a work in progress for me, and I did okay with it, right? I mean, again, I'm not saying I didn't act out at all. I'm just saying I didn't act out badly.

Matt: 1:14

That's the victory, that's,

Steve: 1:14

right, jump.

Matt: 1:15

Look at it, the victory of like, I did the best I could here.

Steve: 1:19

Right, me too.

Matt: 1:20

Yeah, I wanna talk about avoidance. Avoidance is something that, I deal with all the time. One, doing something new, especially I avoid doing something new and I get stuck in patterns. I think about jobs being one of those, because I get a lot of anxiety not knowing how it's gonna end. So, if I don't wanna do it, if I'm not sure, it's gonna end well, because there's that possibility that things are going to go badly and that can be a drinking trigger. I'm curious how you deal with anxiety or I should say, in uncertainty, do you need to know how to do something and how it's gonna turn out before you're comfortable doing it?

Steve: 2:09

Yeah, throughout my life, I've always been uncomfortable. Like a lot of people, right, especially when it comes to work. I mean, there's a long time where I felt like, I probably should have moved to different places to work in my career because I could have made more money. And there was times where a sales manager job opened up and my colleagues who worked with me on my team would say, Steve, you should go for this job and I would know. Nope, nope, just like I said, nope. I'm not doing it, I don't know. And plus it was a little bit of feeling like a fraud there. So there were multiple things, but absolutely. You know, we talked about it before we started recording. I was in Vegas for some work. And just thinking about that trip and going on that trip causes a lot of anxiety, because I don't know, especially getting up, right, I gotta get up at three o'clock in the morning. I gotta head to the airport when you're flying across country, typically here in Connecticut. If you really wanna get any decent type of flights you're leaving early in the morning. And I just walk out the door. I just don't know what that, what stuff it's gonna look like, right, travel is in horrible these days, can be horrible these days. I had none of it, I had perfect travel, beautiful travel. But the anxiety over that. And like we said, once I got to this conference, it was fantastic. It was like, this is what I love to do when I get this conference. I've been in sales my whole life. So I like talking to people, meeting people. This conference has a lot of past co-workers, right. So a lot of us have stayed in the business, even though we're at different companies. So there's a whole social piece to this whole thing too, not just a business piece, but yeah, just trying to pull that off is in trying to do that is always a lot of anxiety for me. And you know, that was always the reason why, what I got them comfortable for a lot of different reasons, not just anxiety. A lot of times I would, I would, you know, drink. And as I said before, you know, you walk, if you're in the airport and you're walking by, you know, I get the ball tomorrow at about 9 o'clock in the morning, both days, actually flying, you know, flying two and from. And you know, there's your people sitting at the bar at 9/30 in the morning, drinking. And I'm like, oh God, I'm so happy. I don't have to do that. I'm so happy that I'm not doing that. And then being, you know, being in Vegas early Monday before anything starts and having all that time to try to figure out what to do. And then. try to try to control my drinking because I had responsibilities so glad I don't have to do that anymore. I'm glad I don't have to sort of fight it and think about it and I have other breed ways to relieve that anxiety and a lot of that is talking to people and a lot of that is preparation for me too. It's like really walking out the door prepared for the trip and then knowing like hey I've prepared the best I can for this trip making sure that things at home are good and everything else is out of my control right and and the program helps me with that program helps me you guys help me when I go to my meetings to tell me it's like I can only control what I control once I get out of town I can't control anything that's happening at the house right in here and like I said if I set up proper help and procedures around that then it'll take care of itself.

Matt: 5:43

This feels a lot like control I am thinking back to being in airports even earlier and seeing drinking and in airports depending on how big the airport is those bars could be packed seven eight nine a. m. Now I feel so good that I to drink to get through those things that has been lifted and it feels like it feels like a burden that I had to live that way and

Steve: 6:11

yeah

Matt: 6:11

that I don't anymore but drinking was at least in the moment a great anxiety lifter that it was when I felt that way and that I was nervous you could have a drink or two or five and feel better in the moment now that anxiety comes hits you back 24 at least it seemed like for me it may think so much worse but at least it was some type of relief valve and now I need a different relief valve I need a way to get through that or accept it and figure out a way to do it or else I can get stuck. The alcohol gave me some type of known outcome at least in terms of a relief valve you know if I was if I was anxious I could drink the drink gave you that feeling too that you you had that relief valve or you have some control over your life

Steve: 7:12

yeah just trying to google it really quickly but you know there's a passage in our in our big book where it says it talks about the comfort that that first drink gives you right and that's what I was just trying to google so I could sort of get it right without messing it up but um but I you know god I remember I still can remember like wait I you know we both been sober for quite a few years and I still remember and we talked about it is talked about meetings and is talked about in our in our readings and stuff like that like I didn't even have to drink the drink to get comfort I just had to have it in my hand I just had to know it was accessible like like it wasn't always I needed to drink it and then feel better it was like that that feeling like once I sat down or once I acquired it I finally relaxed like literally my shoulders would relax and I was like okay I got what I need now so I'm some good for now and you're right because I witnessed some of that right this any any type of work conference to some people it's a chance to party and behave poorly for people and I know so many there's a bunch of you guys that I worked with what which are younger guys but you know you're a younger guys and um and so you know you get there Monday you got conferences all day Tuesday and then everybody's there Tuesday night and there's a big after there's a big party with a feature and it's open bar right for all the free alcohol you want and then and then it's Las Vegas so Casinos are open all night and some of the guys I had lunch with around the big tables because they serve us lunch like you could just see they were hurting puppies right? and and one of the guys I know who I worked for for years said he goes you know it's not that I didn't know this was gonna happen I didn't plan it to go this way he's like saying like he was all know he's like and this is a guy who you know in the past I'm like he probably has a little bit of us in us you know I don't know how much um but, and I just, and that's the kind of stuff I look at, and I've talked to a couple people like who said that 'oh, I went out with the boys last night and I really, you know, I don't need that anymore'. Bada bada I'm like 'Man, I'm glad I don't have to do that because I was able to go to this little shindeig and I'm not a gambler', 'so there's all the things'. And I know my place, right? So I'm able to go there, they had decent food, which was different than the last couple times I've been that these things didn't feed as well. Nice food, got there, got my food, talked to a few people, and within an hour I was out of there, right? And it went, it went on for three hours. So within an hour after I got there, I was heading back to my hotel room, picked me up some gelato, and, and I, where I went, right? I got back to the room and, and by that time it was like nine o'clock, it's, I'm in Vegas, my body hasn't adjusted, like I'm ready for bed at that time, so

Matt: 10:12

yep.

Steve: 10:14

And that's what I mean, I could easily get sucked up into the going out and the party and the, you know, whatever, the flirting, all that kind of stuff that happens when you start throwing alcohol and conferences, you know, at you, but, but I don't need to do it today, you know. I have, I have a, I have a structure that allows me not to, and, and the nice thing about my program is once I'm there, like I didn't have any of that anxiety, right? They're excited that we talked about that I always had, and I would have, like, I didn't have any of that, you know, the travel made me anxious. but as soon as I get on that plane and that plane was moving, like soon to get on that plane in Baltimore and we were flying in Las Vegas, I'm like, that's it. I'm good, right?

Matt: 10:56

Yup,

Steve: 10:57

I mean, we're so that can happen as the plane goes down and I die, and who cares, cuz I'll be dead.

Matt: 11:04

The planes don't go down

Steve: 11:04

he he,

Matt: 11:04

very

Steve: 11:05

they know, oh, I talked to people, like they know, I trust me, I have no problem with playing, cuz they just don't fall out of the sky, I don't want, I don't, I don't wanna go down the rabbit hole, Bill.

Matt: 11:14

often, he

Steve: 11:15

But, but they don't, and that's what I mean, planes don't fall out of the sky, so I don't, I don't worry about my, I don't worry about flying it, I don't get nervous flying it all. But I just get, I get nervous sitting in the airport, like I get nervous, cuz I've spent nights and I spent, you know, time in the airport delayed, delayed delays, and if you fly anytime, then you're going to get delayed and nice, you know, spent the night in Miami on this same conference. A couple of years ago, I spent the night in the airport, Miami coming home, and that's not fun, not fun, and that's that's what bothers me, that, that type of anxiety. But again, you know, I have a, I have a program that allows me to do this kind of stuff, and again, not only not drink, but this is the key, that when those things happen even two years ago, when I got stuck in Miami, I wasn't an asshole to the people who had a work with me to help me out. Right? I wasn't like other people, I wasn't mean, and like it wasn't up, you know, the counter people had nothing to do with the plane being canceled that night, so the program has helped me so that like I said, I don't have to act really bad. I can be frustrated, I can be, you know, whatever, but, you know, I don't need to take out my frustration on people who have no control of the situation.

Matt: 12:33

I am better at that. There are times that, man, I do want to take that out on other people, I don't want to have to make a new amends, so I try and either hold it back or like breathe

Steve: 12:45

through

Matt: 12:46

it, or think through, not their fault. It's the situation,

Steve: 12:52

it's right,

Matt: 12:53

or it's something in me. That level of anxiety, especially over doing something uncomfortable, puts me on edge of snapping. That's likely what I'm going to snap.

Steve: 13:06

Yeah, I don't know, I just got so much better. I'll tell you a quick story. I think tires on some of this is what happens some work done around the house. We've done a bunch of stuff, it's got a bunch of projects going on, a lot of them are being finished up this week, one of them we're supposed to have an awning put over our back deck, which is a south facing deck is really hot, so they show up Friday to do that and I'm out there, and I'm like, I don't need to be there, like these guys don't need me out there, right, they install these things all the time, but I got there and talked to them. I'm like hey, and we're talking about it to job and we ordered a hood, this just goes over the awning, so I sort of protects it a little bit from the weather and the elements, and they're like, oh, there's no hood with this awning.

Matt: 13:50

Oh,

Steve: 13:50

right, I'm like, oh yeah, there's a hood, like we, it's part. So I'm like, and so he's like, all right, he'll call back tonight, so I go in and pull up the contract on the computer, because I didn't, you know, I knew it was a hood, but I didn't print it out or anything. Most of my contracts, so I don't print out anymore. They're all done online, and I look at it and share it off. There's a hood on there, right?

Matt: 14:12

Yep.

Steve: 14:12

And, um... All right, well, yep, they found the hood and the warehouse, they need to assemble it, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, I get that shit happens in business. Like, I get it. Like, like, you know, especially contractors, right? You order something that's not right, uh, whatever it is, I get it. But then we'd have to take it back down and I thought about saying well, that's your problem. Right? I thought about saying that that's your problem. I want to I want you to put up the awning today because we'll be hot This is gonna cool off our room and then yeah come back and take it down while you put up the hood Yeah, it'll cost you more work and all that but I didn't right? I'm like hey We've lived 22 years in this house without an awning. I can live another week without an awning, right? so again, that's that's me not being that jerk that I can be at times right and again, it's that It's that progress not perfection thing. I really do I I will tell you that I take a lot of pride in the progress not perfection idea that You know, so again that I may act out, but I don't act out as badly and I'm not I'm not that unreasonable typically bully of a person that I was in the past and and that's progress for me that really is Because it was that behavior that eventually led me to be pissed off and drink with resentments and drink at people and you know It was that that circle of behavior right get pissed off get angry drink You know be hung over wake up be pissed off. You know, say you're not gonna drink again Be pissed at yourself because you have to drink like there's that vicious cycle that I went through for for About about three I mean it really wasn't that long for me about three or four years I was in that cycle where that was it for me right like

Matt: 16:20

You

Steve: 16:21

know I would I'd create my own resentment because I couldn't not drink So I was always pissed off and I was an admissible person to be around And today I don't need to be that person. I don't need and so the anxiety of not knowing and you started off with just the anxiety of not knowing The outcome of things was big Oh,

Matt: 16:44

Absolutely.

Steve: 16:44

I our buddy Jim Jim A says says that He always said that he said that to me early on early on He said Statement I'm sure he heard it somewhere else. You can plan the event, but you can't plan the outcome And I remember hearing that and thinking that makes a lot of sense to me like I could plan and and I'll tell you I use that all the time like I'll plan something and then once I'm done planning it and The day comes where it's gonna happen. I'm like, okay again. I've done all the planning the outcome will be the outcome You know nobody wants to have a party with nobody shows up, right? Nobody wants to have that correct But nobody shows up and nobody shows up. So you know, that's those are the type of lessons I've learned in this program like from Jim my buddy Jim like he told me that I'll never forget that right and You know, I can forget it in the moment But it's something that I hold dear like okay, I can plan everything and that was part because I had to leave for Las Vegas Leave my it was the first time I left my wife for the lot this long of a period I left for I left Monday All day Monday I left Monday at three o'clock in the morning and didn't get home to Thursday till about 10.30 So, you know better part of well three full days and I had to do a lot of rangelme. We ever dog that needs some care that she really can't do all of it She can't walk it and stuff like that So I I planned all that out and I had it all done and I knew I did a good job with that That was a different to I knew I did a good job with it and when I walked out the door. I was still a little anxious over that But I knew I did everything that I could do and the rest was you know The rest was up to God if you believe in God up to the universe whatever you want to call it But it was nothing I could do 3000 miles away

Matt: 18:35

I'm much better now at that planning and walking way saying did I do my best? Cover every eventuality that I could think of what because there's a difference between why I planned it But I planned it and I was sloppy

Steve: 18:50

right I agree

Matt: 18:51

with which in the way is not really a plan Right I plan this out to the best of my ability and I thought through What might happen there's always things in a plan that could Change the outcome Let's say we had like a really bad thunderstorm or something and then there was no power in your way That might have affected your plan, but that's out of your control that you can't think through that. That's the rare occurrence But you can think through, do I have the people who can come walk the dog, take care of my wife, stop in. Are there people who are on my phone list that I can call if I needed to. And for the most part, you're gonna get the outcome or close to it that you can, that you can think through. But even if I did that in the past, then the drinking days, in the days where I had less tools, I still would be freaked out.

Steve: 19:48

yeah,

Matt: 19:48

I have noticed that as I've, I had this spike and anxiety around my son going, as things are falling into place, the anxiety hasn't lifted. Like this is a, I found, it's a me issue that it is me trying to find something else. Okay, if I resolve that, what else could go wrong. Aha, I've got a car tax issue. Now, I got there's no way I'm going to be able to pay that instead of thinking of what are the, what are the ways I can take action on this. I will tell you one of the, I don't know if this is a recovery tool, but I kind of went for a walk run the other day and the harder I push exercise, the more those feelings go away.

Steve: 20:38

Yeah,

Matt: 20:39

Something

Steve: 20:39

absolutely.

Matt: 20:40

I do with the exercise that is a benefit there, and that's a healthy thing I can do unless I'm really pushing it in the heat or not listening to my body and then injure myself. But I do find myself going to what is the next thing I can obsess about.

Steve: 21:01

Yeah, yeah, I don't do that, I don't do that much anymore. Of course, I think we all do it, maybe to a certain extent. It's not one of my really big things. But one thing you said there before is that sloppy planning. And it just brought me back, right? I was a sloppy planner when I was, especially when I was an alcoholic, right? And like I said, we talked about avoidance right? That's where we talked about the beginning of this whole podcast avoiding things because we can't figure out the outcome. Well, that was my whole life, right? I was, I didn't know the outcome. I mean, here's what happened to me. I knew I was an alcoholic for several years before, you know, I came into these rooms. And I knew my alcoholism was impacting everything around my life yet I couldn't stop drinking. So I knew that there was a good chance, no matter what I planned, that I was going to probably mess it up. Right, that I was going to get drunk. I was going to not put enough time. The time that I needed to do work to make that plan happen. I was going to probably get to drunk that I couldn't do that. So there was a huge amount of anxiety around that whole thing. Again, self-fulfilling prophecy of me knowing that that was that's what was going to happen. Now today, I don't have to do that. And I will say this, this is the beauty of this program, right? My wife does not know a lot of AA people, but she knows a few AA people. So I went to my meeting on Friday night and I told it. And this is the thing I do, too, when I put my stuff out there in my meetings, I put my stuff out there. And I hope when I do that, other people get comfortable enough to put their stuff out there. And I told the guys at my Friday night meeting, I'm like, listen, you know, they all knew I'm going to Vegas. And I've set up and they know my situation with my wife. I've got everything set up. But if shit hits the fan, like we lose power, like anything, like anything like that, like one of you guys are probably going to get a phone call.

Matt: 22:55

Right.

Steve: 22:56

And one of you guys who my wife is comfortable with, right? We talk about my buddy Edson and Todd. Those are the guys my wife knows she's comfortable. And if we lost power, I have as much, I have a generator that I run most things in my health, and those guys would have got a call. Hey, we got no power at the house. I need to go over fire up the generator, get it run and get it hooked up. So that's who has, you know, that lecture is and they would do that. Right. This is the point. Like this is the beauty of the program. Right. They would do that. And again, that, know what that gives me peace of mind. That gives me peace of mind. Even if the shit hits the fan, that at least I have some outlet. And I have people I can count on. And, and that happens to me all the time. Right. People call me if somebody calls me and they need help. Like, you know, it's happened many times. And I, you know, middle dinner, I get a phone call, hey, somebody needs something and I would tell Sue, hey, I got to go out, you know, got to go out and do this. She's not happy about it, but, but I do it. And that's the other beauty, right. That, that type of relationships, those type of friendships in this program. They just, they make my life so much easier and less stressful. Right. Knowing, knowing I got that backstop. Right. So again, it made, it made my trip. I had a wonderful trip. A lot of it, I had no control over stuff that I could control. I did really well with. And, and, you know, I didn't drink. That's the biggest thing. I can't- I came home from Vegas for three days and didn't- not only didn't I drink, I didn't even think, I don't even think about it. And I don't gamble either. Because literally how much, you know, I would need. And every machine is different, so you would have, you know, again, it's- it's one of those things where, as I said, Vegas has every vice you ever, ever you want, right? They have every vice you want, they have gambling, they have sex, they have alcohol, they have every gambling, they- you know, addiction that you can fill there. And I- I love the fact that I could go there and not worry about any of them.

Matt: 25:29

I don't gamble. I don't understand it. And I could see where I could get hooked. Yeah. Spending money for something you don't get services for, or something tangible, just seems like such a waste. And I could see. With my luck, I'm gonna lose,

Steve: 25:46

Yeah.

Matt: 25:46

and then I'm gonna be out a whole bunch of money for what?

Steve: 25:49

Yeah.

Matt: 25:49

And then I'm gonna feel pain and shame, and- and I'm gonna have anxiety that is peeking to the max. I'm not comfortable with

Steve: 25:58

that. Yeah.

Matt: 25:59

Think I don't have to gamble. Oh my-

Steve: 26:01

but- but the dopamine hit of- of having that thing ring up and- and being a winner is like every other dopamine, right? Um, like, whoa, look at this. I just run 300 bucks, right? Oh, I just want a thousand dollars, right? Um, that- that's- that's it, right? That's for Wiener. It's that dopamine hit that.

Matt: 26:16

Mm-hmm.

Steve: 26:17

And again, some people can go and gamble just like they can drink, right? Some people can go to a casino, bring X amount of dollars, whatever that might be. For them. And- and gamble that. And then when they're done with that, if they lose it, walk away. And I think I could probably do that, but I- it just doesn't try. I just don't- it's just not interested me. I'd much-

Matt: 26:36

a budget money for that. I'm gonna budget money for something now.

Steve: 26:39

Right. I'm gonna go out to a nice dinner. I'm gonna go to a show. Right? This same thing. I mean, shows are expensive in Vegas, but there's all kinds of shows, right? So if I'm gonna-

Matt: 26:49

It's different though.

Steve: 26:49

Right, but-

Matt: 26:50

Experience.

Steve: 26:50

no, that's what I'm saying. If I'm gonna budget money, I'm not gonna budget for gambling. I'm gonna budget it for an experience. Right? That's what I'm gonna do.

Matt: 26:59

What brought this up for me is there's a few things going on. There is the whole college thing trying to pay for it. I have looked at other career opportunities, got a couple hits. And even if I get, like, an interview, I think, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, I am- they're gonna hire me and I'm gonna fail.

Steve: 27:20

Like,

Matt: 27:22

things like that. I already get ahead of myself of this is why it's gonna end bad. This time it's gonna end bad. I've gotten through 50 years of life where I survived, but this is the time. It's gonna end badly and I need to find a way through that. So here are the things I'm trying to do differently. I'm not trying to overcome avoidance. I'm trying to notice it. I'm trying to make a better goal of being comfortable around the uncertainty, of having a plan, of I'm afraid. And therefore, I'm going to try this. It's not I'm afraid and I'm gonna stop doing this. Short example is I have had- my grandmother purchased a whole bunch of savings bonds for me. Back when savings bonds had these outrageously high interest rates that don't exist anymore. These

Steve: 28:21

Right?

Matt: 28:21

things have little holes that are like a punch card reader can read. That's all they are. But I need my grandmother's death certificate, and I don't have all the information to get that. And so I have just avoided it because it's like this is gonna take me too long. And thank God for chat GPT because I kind of use some agentic tasks to do some research for me of the things that I need. And it didn't give me everything, but at least it pointed me in the right direction. And now I can get this done. It's not it's not a small amount. It's it's a significant enough amount and savings bonds that no longer occurring interest. So. This is a free government loan that I'm giving. I don't take that money back. I just have to do a couple of things and spend a little bit of money to get a death certificate and get the things I need to do. But it was avoidant. And I do feel a lot better when I take action. That is that is a nice dopamine hit. So I don't if you were looking for here's the definitive answer for getting through this. Stephen, I don't have that. In order we have that for overcoming alcoholism, we have some tips. We have a tried-and-true playbook. There's uncertainty that can't promise it's always going to work. still is that little

Steve: 30:01

It

Matt: 30:01

bit of

Steve: 30:04

anxiety. Well we can promise, I'll finish with this, is that, as my buddy Jim Kay always says, 'You don't drink, you don't have to drink today, if you don't want to'. And you don't have to drink today, even if you want to. And that's the key, right? That second part that, for those out there who are still struggling with drinking, all of the stuff that we're talking about this anxiety, all that stuff. We don't have to drink over it. Right? That's the key, that's what we talk about on this podcast. Um, no matter what's going on, there's all the ways to handle it without picking up that drink, and, um, that gives you a chance to go on and have a much, a much better life.

Matt: 30:50

I hope that you've been able to get at least some things from this podcast, to put a couple of things on the checklist. If these work. Matt, at soberfriendspod.com, drop a line. We'd love to hear from you. Steve, thanks for doing this today.

Steve: 31:05

Thank you, Matt.

Matt: 31:06

And we'll see everybody next week. Bye, everybody.