Navigating Big Feelings: A Candid Conversation on Sobriety, Messy Houses, and Workplace Anxiety

Join us in this raw and insightful episode as we dive into the world of emotions, sobriety, and the challenges of navigating life's big feelings. 

Our talk on vulnerability sparks a discussion on how individuals with addiction issues often struggle with handling their emotions. From workplace anxiety to the fear of failure, we explore the impact of emotional struggles and how it relates to our journeys in recovery.

The episode delves into the challenge of dealing with perfectionism, impostor syndrome, and the constant need for self-improvement. Matt's recent career shift becomes a focal point as he grapples with anxiety and the fear of disappointing others.

Tune in for an authentic conversation on the highs and lows of dealing with big feelings, finding balance in life, and the ongoing journey of personal growth. If you've ever struggled with emotions or are curious about the intersection of sobriety and mental well-being, this episode is a must-listen. Discover practical insights, share a few laughs, and gain inspiration for your own emotional journey.

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Matt: 0:25

When you got somebody doing the show who has ADHD. I think of things even when I hit the button. But John sent me a text that our two time former guest, Kelly Januzzi, by the time this airs, will have three years sober.

Steve: 0:40

Hmm. Nice.

Matt: 0:41

When we first met her, she was sober. I think six months

Steve: 0:45

Yeah.

Matt: 0:45

or something like that. She was a brand new B, So, Kelly,

Steve: 0:48

Yeah.

Matt: 0:48

congratulations. It can be done. You can get sober, you can have a great life. You can also deal with feelings. And I had a discussion with my son. So my son got me all worked up today about the house being messy. I'm like, Yeah, it is messy. And he's talking about the girls being slobs. I'm like, Yeah, they are a slob. And once he got going, I got going and I was all worked up. By the time my wife came in the house with the dogs and we're both yelling at her. And the root cause here is really it was about how he felt. And it was more than it being messy. He talked about the fact that I don't have a big extended family and the family members that we have, there are a lot of flaws with them. And so it was really had this conversation around. I'm just not comfortable with big feelings. And I talked to him a little bit about how this is what we do at 12 step meetings is

Steve: 1:47

Mm.

Matt: 1:47

we talk about this stuff and our feelings. I thought that would be a great topic. It's still something I haven't mastered. How do you deal with your feelings? How do you let let go of that stuff? What's your thoughts?

Steve: 2:02

Well, I'll tell you, it's a it's a great topic for those of us with addiction issues, because we talk about it here all the time.

Matt: 2:09

Yep.

Steve: 2:09

I talk about it. You talk about it. Is that the use of my my use or misuse of alcohol was not the problem, but a symptom of the problem. And the problem for me was and like lots of alcoholics, is that we we got stuck in our feelings. We didn't Mm know hmm. how to handle them. We didn't know what to do with them. We didn't know how to best work with them. And for those of us with this problem, we found that alcohol seemed to help us with that. I mean, it was a lie. And now that's not even true. It probably worked at first, right? It probably worked when you could do it responsibly. but it's a lie that it's going to be able to help you. And it's it's hard. It's hard for everybody right now. It's hard for a lot of people dealing with your feelings and and especially big feelings. And, you know, it's like everything else. It takes some practice, right, to do that, takes some practice and it takes some tools. And like you said, it's what we do in a we, we sort of we do both of those things. We practice how to do it and we have some tools how to do it, and like you said, we don't do it perfectly right now. I mean, just recently, like I'm there's some stuff that I'm dealing with and I have not dealt with it perfect. Perfectly and would wish I had dealt with a lot of it differently. But I'm a more Matt in life. You know, Mm I hmm. don't beat myself over it too much, but I do try to do better, which is what I always try to do

Matt: 3:43

I have a new job. The new job is tailored to my skill set. I have bitched and moan on this podcast for probably a few years now about things around the job and ebbs and flows of stress. And I'm in a place where things are far different. I'm doing strategy, and it's just. It's much different workflow. I'm not moving widgets anymore.

Steve: 4:05

right?

Matt: 4:05

Now I'm creating a strategy for the people who do move the widgets, and it's different. And I realized last night I had grade a anxiety over this new job and I realized it was around, I'm going to fail. I'm not going to be good at this. There are a lot of people I've met who seem to like me, and somehow I'm going to disappoint them because of being in a 12 step program and being in therapy. I realized immediately this is not real, nor is it logical. It's not rational. It doesn't stop the fact that I feel this. And I was able to talk to my wife about it when I got home. Hey, I'm feeling this way. I am really feeling stressed about the job. I have no reason to feel this way, but I am. My character defects are coming up a perfectionism and it's come up. I've done some work where I felt like, Oh, I could do that better. And there are people I work with are like, Wow, that was really great.

Steve: 5:05

You know, it's it's easy. I get anxious over work, too. I mean, it's a little different for me. I'm at the tail end of my career. it's interesting, we just had a meeting last week where, they want to reboot the company somewhat. The company is very small company, and I always think they're going to shut the company down. And it's very much, it's very much struggling. And that could, that could happen. And but, you know, so I decided my wife and I've been saying she's like, oh, you need to retire. I need to do some volunteer work. You know, you need to do some stuff to keep you busier. And I'd like or maybe I should just work more, right? I mean, like I

Matt: 5:40

Mm

Steve: 5:40

work

Matt: 5:40

hmm.

Steve: 5:40

somewhere some I retired. Like maybe I should put a little bit more effort into my job cause I want to keep working for another year, and then we get on this call and, you know, I have what they call imposters imposter syndrome,

Matt: 5:54

Me

Steve: 5:54

right? I

Matt: 5:54

too.

Steve: 5:54

always think that. Right, Right. We talk about that and I get on this call and we start talking about it and it comes out on this call. We're going to have these calls once a week. And and I've taken a lead role in this stuff. And I really try to, because I have 30 years experience in this industry. But what I come to find out is that the two accounts that I handle, I have them more than that. But to the to the to my two best accounts are the two accounts that really have been keeping the company afloat. And it's like, oh, so that's why I still have my job, right? Like my account, my accounts are performing, you know,

Matt: 6:30

Yeah.

Steve: 6:31

And I do realize that they're not they're small, they're not big accounts. So I realize, like, if those are the two accounts that are really only performing regularly, then I realized that we're in trouble. So anyway, so it's just interesting. You know, you have this anxiety over it. Every time my boss would reach out to me, I would think, Oh, here it comes. He's going to tell me that he he you know, he he's going to let me go, going to fire whatever the word you might say. And I'm always thinking that. But yet, you know, my accounts are the ones performing, you know, So and so anyway. So it's always like that, that that anxiety is really, really tough. Those feelings are tough. I you know, I had a thing one of the things I've decided to do and this I mean this this is just in the last week or something, I've decided that when something's bothering me and maybe this is something that everybody a lot of people do easily, I don't do it easily, so I'm going to talk about it. So if my

Matt: 7:25

Yep.

Steve: 7:25

if something if my wife says something to me that bothers me, it may be it may seem small, but I'm going to bring it up and discuss it with her. Like, hey, that bothers me, right? I don't like the way you just said that, because what I've done my M.O. has always been is not to do that. Mm hmm. And then, like you, like your example that you're saying it was really interesting because what I heard you say about your son is that he was complaining about the house being messy. Yet what was really the problem was something bigger, Right. Yeah. The lack of family. Right. I think I think it's human. That's happens to a lot of us right. So the same thing happens all of a sudden. I don't deal with all these little little things, these little slights, whatever they may be, and they build up and build up. And then all of a sudden my wife says something I blow up. She can't figure out why I'm blowing up because it's just a small little thing. So I've taken a new tack, like, I don't want to do that anymore. So I'm going to let you know. Now, sometimes those conversations are uncomfortable. We just had Mm hmm. one the other day and she's like, Oh, I think that's just minutia and I'm just mean. And. I said, I'm just telling you, this is one of the things that just takes away chips away, chips away. And then all of a sudden I blow up and I don't want to do that anymore, Right? I don't want to be there. I don't want to live that way. So, listen, we all can change these things, but it takes work, it Mm takes effort hmm. Mm hmm. and it takes some skill.

Matt: 8:50

So how have 12 steps worked with this? What's worked for you? What have you learned from recovery around

Steve: 8:57

Well,

Matt: 8:57

this type of thing?

Steve: 8:58

I mean, the biggest thing I've learned is to look inward, right? I really is right. It's to look at me, not look at the other person. So and that's what I mean. So my wife may be right. Some of this stuff may be minutia in other relationships and stuff. Day things may not even register, but but they bother me. So I look inward and the same thing. So when when we get into these blow ups, which don't happen as often, like I always have to look at me. I was I was at my Friday night meeting and one of the guys there, one of our boys, Todd, said he shared that, you know, he he got into this discussion or argument with his wife and he never screamed at her. And and I said, you know something? I wish I, I was there like, cried this out arguing with my wife. And I did scream at her. I'm like, I'm not there. Right. At least at that point I wasn't. So I need to always look inward and like, all right, what's going on? And I do. I'm looking inward. I've got some books, I'm reading some books on meditation and stuff like that. So there's some things I need to change or add to my life, which I think will be very helpful. And, you know, but again, that takes work. It takes effort, it takes discipline. Sometimes I'm not real good with some of those things, and

Matt: 10:24

Yeah.

Steve: 10:24

I

Matt: 10:25

Discipline.

Steve: 10:25

just keep trying. I just keep trying.

Matt: 10:27

Discipline.

Steve: 10:28

Yeah.

Matt: 10:28

I'm not good at that. It's funny you said that about the. About the. About the book. I have. I have an audible subscription that I don't ever really do anything, so I just let the let everything build up. And I finally got a notice that said, Hey, you're going to lose a couple of credits here. So one of the books I got was 10% happier with Dan Harris. I had been doing a little research into Dan Harris and I looked and I'm like, You know what? This is one of those things that I think can help me. The other book that I got by Susan Kane is called Quiet. It's Around Introversion and Introverts in the Workplace, which is very challenging for me in the workplace in one way. Working from home and being on my teams all day is the introverts dream. On the other hand, there's so many introverts in leadership or extroverts in leadership that it's very challenging. And I don't want to have call after call after call after call with people I don't know, especially in a new role. And it freaks me out. But somebody mentioned that book, so I'm going to do that. And it's funny you mention that about the books. Books are another things, I think. What's when your wife said this is minutia, this is part of your wife not understanding addiction. It's not minutia on the surface. If you really if you really bothered about the small stuff. Yeah, that's minutia. But the small stuff is the tip of the iceberg. And so you got to talk to somebody and say, okay, are you really upset about this topic? What's really going what are the feelings associated with this and dig it out. That's what I've learned in meetings.

Steve: 12:14

Right. And that's what I try to do. First of all, I have to do that with myself, right? So I have to write. I have to discuss it with somebody or even in this case, discuss it with my wife. But I sort of need to put myself because this is what happened. Like, the event happened one night we were having dinner and and I took a couple of days, like, I didn't Mm address hmm. it right away. Right. So I took two or three days to sort of do a little work, internal work on myself, like, okay, what's going on? What am I feeling? What bothers me about this is, you know, and then finally, one just I just went into the hey, I just want to talk about that's it, and here's how I feel about it. And it was really good that I did. I was right. It was a discussion wasn't a big deal. There weren't a lot of feelings at that point. She paid attention. She stopped looking at her phone. We had a little conversation and she's like, all right, probably didn't agree with it, but acknowledged it. And that's all I want, right?

Matt: 13:07

Yeah.

Steve: 13:07

That's

Matt: 13:07

It's

Steve: 13:07

all

Matt: 13:07

not

Steve: 13:07

I wanted.

Matt: 13:08

even about agreeing or disagreeing.

Steve: 13:09

Right?

Matt: 13:10

It's empathy. Listen.

Steve: 13:11

Right. And she did all of those things. Mm hmm. She did all of those things. And I. I noticed them and she looked at me and we had this conversation and it wasn't even a conversation. It was she'd listen to me and it was really important. And it was you know, it was a big thing for me. And I just want to, you know, shout out on a book that I have and I've been going through it kind of slowly. There's a book out there called Already Free, and the subtitle is Buddhism Meets Psychotherapy and the Path of Liberation. And it talks about this guy who's a psychotherapist. He's either therapists and he's also Buddhist, and he talks about how he uses those two things in order to point out, you know, a little bit of the Buddhist stuff where we're already free. And in a summary, basically a lot of stuff is things aren't good or bad. They just are, right? That's true. That's sort of the Buddhist

Matt: 14:03

Yes.

Steve: 14:04

thought. Things aren't good or bad. They they just are

Matt: 14:08

That's also Daoism.

Steve: 14:09

right.

Matt: 14:10

Yeah.

Steve: 14:10

And so, you know, and I read this and there's a lot of things in this book that, like they make a lot of sense to me. And this is going to be one of those books that I'm going to constant read, right? So I'm going to read it and then I'll go reread it and then so some really good things in there, suggestions of how, you know, it talks about exactly what we're talking about. You get in these places where you have these feelings, you're feeling sad or you're feeling uptight or you're feeling worried, and how you start dealing with some of those things and so there are a lot of books out there, right? And we

Matt: 14:45

Right.

Steve: 14:45

talk about it all the time in our A program tells

Matt: 14:48

And

Steve: 14:48

us that it doesn't have all the answers and it tells us, go try to find some of these answers elsewhere.

Matt: 15:26

therapy works. I

Steve: 15:27

Yeah,

Matt: 15:28

had a good therapy session a couple of weeks ago where I was honest about a bunch of things. So my issue is I put this protective cocoon over me in a lot of situations, and I can be standoffish with people I don't know. And this is where alcohol came in that I could feel more I could be more of myself if I have alcohol, let the inhibitions down. But without alcohol, that walnut shell goes up and I've worked really hard on it, but it's still there. I have not cried over my mother passing in 2018. It is very difficult for me to let the feelings out and to cry. I it's like a reflex of hold it together and I've got to figure out what's at root of this. So what I'm being good about is I have this protective shell and I don't know how to fix it, but I can take it a step at a time.

Steve: 16:23

Yeah. And that's all we can do, right? I mean, that's what we should do. Well, you know, life life is, life is challenging. Lots of things, especially, you know, at your point in life. Young, young family, Mm hmm. Right? You got. You got a lot of stuff. You know, you got your work stuff you're trying to balance. I, I remember those years. My wife and I've talked about that she's, you know, complained that her her kids wouldn't return her text messages or phone messages back in the day. And I just remember saying to her, honey, do you remember when you had two kids that were two and four?

Matt: 16:55

Yeah,

Steve: 16:55

It's like, you know, it's like or even now that they're older, now that you're running around to different functions, it's like they're busy, but their lives are. They're busy and they got a lot going on. So yeah, there's a lot going on and we just have to take it one step. We really have to take it slow. I mean, unless unless we feel like there's something big that that's really threatening to our, our relationships, our marriage. Like there are times to, you know, pull the pull the fire alarm and get really help if you need it, though. So that's the other thing. If you really feel like things are going moving really too fast and you really need help, then it's time to pull that alarm and get yourself some help.

Matt: 17:35

that's definitely something you should do. Take it from me. I get help.

Steve: 17:38

Yeah.

Matt: 17:39

I go to a therapist now, and I'm trying to work on these things I

Steve: 17:45

No,

Matt: 17:45

was talking to. I had a skip level with my director today, and she's very chatty, and I found out today she's an introvert. And at first I was like, That can't be possible. Oh, yeah, it is.

Steve: 17:57

but.

Matt: 17:57

Because she tends to talk to fill up the dead space. That's

Steve: 18:02

Mm.

Matt: 18:02

kind of an introvert thing. I don't know how comfortable she is with silence, but she tries to do hard things. And it was a reminder to me that this person who is to pay grades above me has some of the same problems I have.

Steve: 18:18

Yeah. I mean that's, that's another part of our program is that we start to realize that we're not unique with this stuff. Right? We're not Mm unique hmm. with our addiction, our disease, and we're also not unique with our feelings. And that's the beautiful thing about going to meetings. Like you said, you told your son, that's what we do. And Yeah. sometimes what sometimes what that means is that we just listen to other people and we realize, Oh, yeah, they're struggling too, right? I mean, yeah, they're struggling with life, too. And we also hear like, Oh shit, I'm glad that's not my life I'm dealing with.

Matt: 18:51

Right.

Steve: 18:51

They're like that, right? So there's so much we hear about that and it's so much it gives us comfort and support and we're and we're able also to have some gratitude sometimes thinking, you know, I actually have a pretty good you know, I had my I had my annual wellness check, they call it now. I used to they used to call it a physical. Now they call it the annual wellness check. and I went to my doctor and I have good genetics, so I don't take any meds. Right? No high blood pressure, no nothing. I don't take any meds. And, you know, my doctor said to me like, hey, anything you want to talk about any problems? And I told them, like, the only problem I have, Doc, is like accepting the fact that I'm 65 years old, Right? Mm hmm. And all the stuff that comes with that. Right? So even that I got it. You know, those are some of the feelings that I that I'm going through right now. So like, yeah, I can't do everything that I want to do, you know, and I have to adjust some of the things in there, you know, maybe if a little bit regret in there that I didn't do some things that I should have done when I was younger. Those are all feelings that I need to sort of come to terms with, you Mm hmm. know, and I need to constantly and and I need to watch out for them. I mean, I don't know what it is, but lately, I don't think about drinking, but it's lately like, it seems like it's been in front of me more than in noticeable. and I don't know what it is, and, but those are the things I got to start paying attention to. Like I have to pay attention to all of those feelings because it's, it's a very short trip for me and for a real alcoholic or real addict to take that next step and all of a sudden allow some of these feelings to build up Mm hmm. or just or just make that mistake. Like we always hear it. Like, I was driving down the street and I just turned into the parking store and I picked up a bottle of wine.

Matt: 20:46

Yep.

Steve: 20:46

How many times do you hear that? So I'm always on guard for that. And it's really interesting. I read this article about Moscow, right. And how it's produced, and apparently it's become this big thing. And I I'm a big tequila. I was a big tequila drinker and I drank my share of mezcal during the day. But I read this article in the Washington Post. They were talking about how some of the biggest, best Moscow is made by wild plants, not the cultivated plants. Mm And hmm. now the and it takes like 30 to 50 years for agave plant to mature. So these plants are being now they're being searched for in the wild and they're they're going to lose them. But anyway and then I pick up this book and I start reading this book about a, Yellowstone Park ranger just picked it up in the library the other day. And in it, what do I read? He's drink in Moscow, Mm hmm. and I'm just like, What a coincidence that is. Like, I just read this whole thing and now this character in the book, maybe the past. I wouldn't have noticed those things in the past. I probably wouldn't have read that article. But like those things, I pay attention to that nowadays because I

Matt: 21:55

Yeah.

Steve: 21:55

got to be careful with that, you know, especially when I'm feeling certain feelings of big feelings or feeling down or depressed or lonely. Right? That whole thing, the whole hungry, angry, lonely, tired. Right. If I'm feeling those things, I got a you know, those are all feelings Mm except hmm. for hungry. Hungry is a feeling, but it's a physical feeling,

Matt: 22:16

It leads to other feelings.

Steve: 22:17

right?

Matt: 22:18

If you're hungry,

Steve: 22:18

And

Matt: 22:18

that's a bad place

Steve: 22:19

so

Matt: 22:19

for me.

Steve: 22:20

I always have to be aware of those things. You know, some of those sayings are funny and some of them are stupid, but some people may think, but for me, I find them to be useful. Useful when I'm when I'm those things, I'm like, okay, I got to pay attention to this

Matt: 22:35

I struggle with other people's feelings, So my son being upset. I do not like that storm. The fact that first he got me upset and then realizing what's going on. I don't like that turmoil. I don't like that conflict. I like peace and serenity. And when people's feelings are up in the air, it's very uncomfortable for me.

Steve: 22:59

yeah. Especially the people close to us, right? I

Matt: 23:02

Right?

Steve: 23:02

mean, they're like, like, like your kids, especially. None of us want to see our kids have these feelings and struggle with these feelings. I it's a it's a worrisome thing. Or our our partner or our wife or our husbands, whoever it may be. Most of us don't want those things. I know that if my wife is very upset and have all these feelings going on, whether they directly or whether they're part of something that we did or not, it makes me uncomfortable, too. It makes me right. I mean, these are people we care about. These are people we love. so it's really, really important that, you know, we have some communication with, everybody.

Matt: 23:38

Mm hmm. I want to share, as we wrap this up, a victory that I had this week because I'm working a little bit late. I was. I was getting to work at seven before, so getting to the gym at 330 was it worked? But getting off work at five now

Steve: 23:55

Mm

Matt: 23:56

doesn't work. So I wasn't

Steve: 23:57

hmm.

Matt: 23:57

going to the gym during the week. And I also saw that at work, if I get to the gym 120 times this year, they'll pay up to $150 of my gym membership. And I have been struggling to get up early enough to go to the gym, and I made it to days this week. So

Steve: 24:13

Mm

Matt: 24:13

I

Steve: 24:13

hmm.

Matt: 24:13

started to build a new habit. And lo and behold, I felt better.

Steve: 24:19

Mm hmm.

Matt: 24:19

I felt a lot better. Now, I gave myself permission today to sleep when I was tired. And I don't know if I start this habit of going to the gym every single day just because I don't want to break the habit. That's not good either, because I know I'm going to go on Sunday and Saturday. It did feel good, though, and I broke a habit and I felt better. So I took a day off today. I will go tomorrow and I will get even a small workout in this

Steve: 24:45

And

Matt: 24:45

office. This goes into our topic here too, of I can go for 10 minutes because that's better than nothing.

Steve: 24:52

right,

Matt: 24:52

Incrementalism.

Steve: 24:54

Absolutely. And and it's nice to be able to do that. And I've always liked working out in the morning when I could, and there was a time where I did. I would get up early and I'd go and work out. And I always like for me, that was the best time. I'd never I always liked it way better than working out after work. so in the south end, just like you said, you know, like if you go, if you call twice a week and then go on both days on a weekend, that's four times a week. Man.

Matt: 25:18

Yep.

Steve: 25:18

That's the truth is that that's all you need to do right now. If you, you know, if you make it three times in a week, that's fine. But if you go twice a week and then, you know, the other days Mm you hmm. sleep in or three times and you Mm can sleep hmm. in two days, That's that's more than that's more than enough. I mean, it's you know, but again, being alcoholic, sometimes we think that we got to do it all or nothing,

Matt: 25:40

Yes.

Steve: 25:40

right? So

Matt: 25:40

The all

Steve: 25:41

it's

Matt: 25:41

or nothing

Steve: 25:41

either

Matt: 25:41

thing comes

Steve: 25:42

right?

Matt: 25:42

in, and I have changed. Why? I'm doing this, too. There's a couple. I had a doctor's appointment. We're getting. We're getting him the health stuff. But this is part of it, too, because I'm taking care of myself. I had the colonoscopy. What is it called? The colonoscopy? Pre pre meeting where he wanted to see me before he scheduled

Steve: 26:03

Counsel

Matt: 26:03

the colonoscopy,

Steve: 26:04

Yeah. Consultation.

Matt: 26:04

the console

Steve: 26:05

Yeah, yeah.

Matt: 26:06

and but these are the things I'm doing to take care of myself. I want to take care of my colon, because that that that has in the past been the second highest killer of men.

Steve: 26:16

Mm

Matt: 26:17

And I

Steve: 26:17

hmm.

Matt: 26:17

want to get good exercise in because if I want to be spry at 80 years old, I got to do the physical fitness. Now, studies say

Steve: 26:28

Yeah,

Matt: 26:28

if you're physically fit earlier in your life, when you reach 80, you're going to be in good shape. I don't want to

Steve: 26:34

right,

Matt: 26:34

be an invalid and

Steve: 26:36

right.

Matt: 26:36

I want my insides to be ticking. Well, so I'm doing the exercise now without the thoughts of how the outside is going to look.

Steve: 26:46

Yeah. And I think that again, again, it is a health thing, but it's a it's about doing a well balance, having a somewhat of a well-balanced life. And it's one of the things they, they asked me, you know, it's my first time I've been for this physical, it since I've been on Medicare. And they go to a bunch of questions Do you eat healthy? Do you exercise? And I can answer like yes for the most part to all of those, right? I mean, I walk every day. I'm not always at the gym, but, you know, I mean, I've been walking four or five or six miles a day with the dog for the last six months. Matter of fact, the dog started getting skinny. And

Matt: 27:25

Yeah,

Steve: 27:26

was it it wasn't until my buddy Mike told me, hey, Winnie, are you losing weight? And I looked at I'm like, she is too thin. And it turns out she had lost a couple of pounds when she went to her next visit because she was what, all of a sudden, you know, I'm walking. So she's walking. So we had to up her food. But, um, so it's important for those things because those things also help you when it comes to feeling, which

Matt: 27:47

absolutely.

Steve: 27:48

comes the stress, right? So that exercise, although it may sound like it's a different thing, they actually work. It actually works to help you deal with some of the stuff, Mm hmm. some that's, you know, so that you're not so uptight, you're not so anxious, you know, it gives you endorphins, it gives you all of these things that you need in order to have a healthier physical and mental body so that you can, you know, so you can be a participant in life and and take on some of life's harder stuff.

Matt: 28:22

We'd like to hear what you have to say. You can find me mad as Sober Friends podcast. You can link right to the website, Sober Friends podcast, where you can join our mailing list and see what we're up to. Give us a follow on Instagram at Sober Friends podcast, and we'd love to have your feedback on Apple getting five stars. It helps to know what we're doing well. Steve good to break open the feelings with you tonight

Steve: 28:51

All right, Mac, Thanks for having me.

Matt: 28:53

and we'll see you next week by everybody.